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Normalize It Forward | Jeff Calhoun | Student Athlete

Pressures Of A Student Athlete With Jeff Calhoun

December 10, 2024December 16, 2024

Every student athlete is burdened with the task of balancing work and play. They are expected to perform well in their academics and in the court, and most of the time, this pressure takes a huge toll on their mental health. Marc Lehman explores the right way to provide support to student with former basketball player and current coach Jeff Calhoun. Together, they emphasize the importance of normalizing conversation about mental health among young adults and how they should connect with their elders and fellow students about it. Jeff also explains why taking moments of tranquility is extremely needed in this constantly interconnected world that does not seem to know how to take a break.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Pressures Of A Student Athlete With Jeff Calhoun

In this episode, we are welcoming Jeff Calhoun. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. Jeff, in your college years in the early ‘90s, I know you had played for UConn for your father for several years and sustained a number of injuries over time. I certainly want to chat with you about that in a bit. Jeff spent the last several years as Senior Vice President at Wheels Up, a private aviation company. In 2023, he co-founded a company. Jeff, what’s the name of the company?

REAL SLX.

It’s a sports, lifestyle, and experience club based in New York City. Jeff also does some work for ESPN as a spotter in the booth during college football games and is the assistant coach of the men’s basketball team at the University of Saint Joe’s. Personally, Jeff is married with three daughters. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. How are you?

I’m great. It’s good to see you again. We go back a long way.

Athletic Background

It’s lovely to reconnect and hear about all of the things that you’re doing. Jeff, I started this show to give young people the message of how important it is to talk about mental health and wellness and work at not avoiding the conversation. As you know, there’s so much going on with young people. Let’s go back for a minute to your younger and my younger days at UConn as an athlete coming up through the high school and the college system and your dad as a coach for many years. I want to ask, point of view-wise, what was that like many years ago being an athlete, both in high school and college? Are you able to capture that for us?

I was always very driven to advance my basketball career. I grew up in a basketball home and always had a dream of playing for my father. There’s a lot of pressure we put on ourselves to exceed. It’s one of those things. We all tend to focus on the losses, not the wins, which can be challenging, especially at that age. It hits kids at different places.

There was a pressure I put on myself for a long time where I knew I was one of the better players certainly in high school and things like that. As you get to a place like UConn, you’re not just playing, say, college sports but you’re playing the highest level of college sports. The struggles change, the pressure intensifies, and the expectations are difficult sometimes to meet. Balancing those can be a challenge.

Jeff, with the original son-coach combo, over the last few years, we were witnessing amazing things at UConn with Andrew and his dad. I can’t help but think as a fan, I’m excited for the year but I’m thinking about that word pressure. There’s an expectation here of wins and the National Championship. That couldn’t be a higher expectation for those players.

Pressure And Anxiety

It’s an immense pressure and expectation. I got to imagine for a young person, that pressure is above your pay grade at that age. It’s hard to understand. With NILs and everything, there’s a lot of finances involved as well. That’s an interesting segue. We talk about mental health and certainly on college campuses, anxiety and depression are at an all-time high. You’ve got three kiddos and have been through the college years with them as have I. It is a little scary as a parent to hear how intense it is.

Bridging those two points, for me, was always difficult. There was an added pressure certainly growing up in stores as my dad’s son. I was a recruited high school athlete. I had other options to go places similar to UConn. I knew going to UConn that it was going to be difficult. It’s funny. The things I thought would be a problem, maybe relationships with teammates and things like that didn’t end up being the problem. Things I didn’t see coming became a little bit more challenging for me.

As you look at what kids go through, I look back and feel very fortunate in some ways to not have had to deal with social media, some of the expectations, the internet, and all of these things where these kids can’t turn it off and they don’t have solace that I could find, whether it was going home, going to a friend’s house, or whatever it was. It could find a little bit of an oasis of calm and get away from it as best you can. Whether you’re an athlete or non-athlete student, there’s no escaping it. It never stops. It never gives you the ability to turn it off. I certainly have seen it with my kids how difficult it is.

You bring out a great point, which is peace in your day. We can certainly talk about how that happens. For lots of people, whether they’re young adults or older adults, we all need peace in our lives. Our phones are on all the time. We do have the option of turning them off. We just overlooked that option a lot. I try to point out to my patients, at least, the advantages of things that you can get on phones like meditative apps, for example. I can’t tell you how many college students I’ve worked with over the years who use Headspace, Calm, or other meditative apps. It’s great for kids to pop their earbuds in, listen to, and feel that peace. You’re right. It is hard, especially as an athlete. Athletes are constantly moving and always going.

It’s the pressure of a bad game or, “This isn’t going as well.” That’s typical. That happens to everybody, even the best players. Ray Allen and Donyell Marshall, who I played with, had their struggles. That’s not different for them than it was for me. There’s an audience out there who has a voice as to what’s going on with you and how you’re doing. It’s not always a kind or supportive voice. There are those people out there. I don’t want to overlook that but it’s easy to find the negativity.

It’s also easy for these kids to feel the pressure of it all, whether it’s the people they grew up with, their family, or the fans of the team. There are bumps in the road and you’re figuring it out. We live in a society where the results are expected and the criticism comes quickly. It’s challenging for these kids. As you added, also the money coming in on NIL. It’s dialed up where people feel more entitled. I’m sure kids feel much more pressure because they’re getting paid.

We currently live in an analysis society where results are expected and criticism comes quickly. Share on X

I have to imagine the non-athlete or the typical kid who goes to school. I’ve been consulting at a private school in the area and I’m watching as my high school students are filling apps out. They’re transitioning to go off to college. With the non-athlete typical college kid, there’s still a ton of pressure and competitiveness around what school they’re going to. The concept of, “Are you going to be happy there,” seems to get lost. I asked that question. It’s almost like that’s not asked of the students themselves. Is that something you noticed with your kids?

A hundred percent. None of my kids are athletes in college. I feel like that completely. It’s much more of a style-over-substance conversation because they’re seeing other kids go to this or that school. With your age and my age, we were in this bubble where you knew the kids in your town and maybe some people from other places but there wasn’t this pressure of the entire country of kids trying to get in and say, “Look where I got in,” and this battle to get into these competitive schools, which has only gotten worse.

I can’t imagine with all the information that’s out there. To your point about the apps that are on the phone, there’s so much good information that’s come out of this where kids are so much more informed than we were but there is another side to that coin, which is all that pressure and expectation. Sometimes kids feel that rather than saying, “It’s going to work out regardless of where it is because I’m going to make it work out. This ends up being the place that I was meant to be at. Maybe this is the better fit for me,” rather than, “This is the place that looks best on my Instagram posts that I’m going to.”

Self-Care

I’m curious about your thoughts on this. As I alluded to, anxiety and depressive rates across the country are at an all-time high. For parents like us, it’s terrifying to know that suicide is the second leading cause of death in this age bracket. I used to tell parents, “That’s reported. It’s probably the number one because a lot of times it goes unreported.” It’s always terrifying to me when I hear stories like that but unfortunately, every few months, I hear about another one.

It leads me to think, what can parents and kids do? Beyond seeing a therapist, what are those things kids can do tangibly on campus that might be helpful? One of those big topic areas is self-care. Self-care is a phrase that’s been thrown around a lot in the last many years. I’m curious. When you think of self-care, Jeff, whether it’s your girls, yourself, or other people that you know, what does self-care mean to you?

Primarily for me, what first jumped into my mind when you asked the question is certainly when I was their age, I don’t think it was as accepted or normalized to talk about the way how you were doing that way. Not very loving parents couldn’t ask for better parents but I grew up in a home where this was probably me putting it on myself but being tough. Was this ideal that I tried to live up to? I tried to be as tough as possible. To me, I thought tough was like, “Look what I can take.” I’ve since learned that that’s not a way to describe toughness.

Toughness comes in a lot of forms, in much better and healthier forms than the way I had defined it. It’s being able to primarily recognize the way you’re feeling and finding a community, a therapist, friends, family, or a community where you feel comfortable talking about the way you’re feeling and being able to say, “I’m not doing great. I’m going through this or reaching out.” That’s a big piece of it. Getting back to what we had talked about previously, because the world doesn’t stop and it’s not, you don’t have the ability to turn it off. It’s finding that time to turn it off, settle, be at peace, and find some tranquility in this. No matter where you are, it’s always on and buzzing.

Find the time to turn off everything around you and be at peace. Find some tranquility in today’s chaos no matter where you are. Share on X

You made two good points I want to highlight. One is that conversation. It is the crux of why I created this show of people having conversations about mental health issues, whether it’s talked about in those terms or kids are talking about stress. I find it unbelievable that when I talk to college kids and say, “Have you talked to any of your friends about how your classes are going.” They’re like, “No.” No kids do that in college. Kids don’t talk about class.

There’s this huge chunk of stuff going on in kids’ worlds with academics that no one talks about with each other. Kids can feel a ton of pressure from classes not going well. They’re sitting with that alone. The classic freshman who thinks they studied enough to fail their first exam. They don’t tell anybody but they double down in their mind and they’re like, “I’ll do better on the next one.” That’s a formula for anxiety.

Normalizing the conversation and for kids to understand that there are adults, whether it be you and I, RAs, RDs, coaches, assistant coaches, teachers, or other professionals on campus that would understand, lend an ear, sit down, and have a conversation. It may not be able to help them solve things but they’ll certainly listen and be able to offer that to them.

Your second point, which is spot on, is for kids to find a place and a time in their schedule regularly to create some peace for themselves. As strange as it sounds, if I’m seeing patients all day long, sometimes I’ll go and have lunch at a park nearby to clear my head and get out of the office. Certainly, exercise is a big one for me in terms of clearing my head and getting the clutter out. As you can imagine, I might hear a few things during the week.

I’m sure for yourself as well, everybody’s got these busy schedules. Why should college kids’ lives be any different with creating that peace? I encourage kids regularly to find that, whatever it looks like for them. For some kids, working out is great. Other kids hate it. It’s finding something else that they might enjoy to help bring that stress level down. It’s a great suggestion.

I wish the kids knew. I had a conversation with one of my daughters about something like this, where it’s one of those things. It’s the burden of youth, thinking that if you’re going through it, you’re the only one who’s going through it. I’m trying to have that conversation with my daughter, “I promise you if you’re feeling this way, almost everybody around you is feeling this way too. Sometimes it’s not easy and I get that but sometimes, be pleasantly surprised if you had the vulnerability to tell somebody else that this is how you were feeling.”

A lesson I learned later in life is sharing the way I was feeling about things and finding that these people that I was very close to were going through the same thing on a parallel path. Neither one of us had ever talked to each other about it but finding that other person and finding that me telling my story helped them and me. Also, building a community of people who do listen, are there for you, and can understand what you’re going through.

Statistics support what you’re saying. One of the advantages in some ways to the majority of kids being anxious is you can say to yourself, “I’m not in the minority anymore. There’s a lot of kids out there.” It’s super good advice. It’s important for kids to hear that and realize it. You used the keyword vulnerability. If you can lean into that conversation a bit and say, “Have you been stressed about this class? I’ve been super stressed about it,” the conversation flows. I’m amazed at how many kids get to school, are super homesick, and never tell anybody around them how homesick they are. They’ll go to social media but they won’t tell kids around them. I joke, “Kids, you’d have to come from a pretty awful home to not miss something.”

Here’s a true story. My dorm room looked at my high school. I could see my high school from my dorm room window. My dad’s office was maybe a quarter mile from my dorm room. I saw him every day. My parents live 6 miles away. I was homesick. If I can be homesick, anybody can be homesick.

Memorable Mentors

That’s funny, Jeff. That’s an interesting transition to my next question for you. For so many adults I talked to, in our college and high school years, we had our mentors and people who would make suggestions. Maybe we’re able to, years later, look back and go, “That was helpful. That person had an impact on me.” It could have been someone that you least suspected in high school, a club coach of something, a friend’s parent, or certainly an advisor. Also, many coaches over the years with athletics, teachers, and all sorts of adults. I’m curious. As you look back as an adult, are you able to pull out one of those statements that somebody made to you that had an impact?

A couple of people but one specifically. We had our academic advisor for the basketball team at UConn. He was a professor of Biology at UConn. His name was Ted Taigen. He was a pretty well-known guy on campus. He’s a great person. As I battled through injuries, it put me in a pretty good depression, which I didn’t know I think what it was. I woke up one day and realized that I was not in a great place. I was having a tough time focusing on school.

He came to me and said that he noticed what was happening to me and lent an ear. He told me at the time, “You don’t have to stay in school if you don’t want to go to college and if that isn’t for you.” It wasn’t the path I ended up choosing but in a bigger conversation, those statements gave me the freedom to realize I don’t have to do all of this. If I do this, it’s because I want to do it and it’s right.

It was knowing that I didn’t have to stay on this path, people were there to help me, and people got it when I thought what I was going through was me. I had built a bubble. We talked about, “I’m the only one going through this. Nobody understands what it’s like to be me and what I’m going through.” “No, everybody has their challenges here and everybody’s dealing with something.” It helped me.

That’s an awesome story. Good for Ted for taking the steps to do that. I feel like for adults, that’s also a vulnerable decision like, “Do I say something? Do I not?” Not necessarily realizing how big of an impact that can have on a kid to say, “I see something’s going on. Here are some ideas and suggestions.” I like the way you put that. It sounds like it was a pivotal moment during your college years. Thank you for telling us that story, Jeff. I appreciate it.

Parenting Challenges

The life of a young person is hard. Equally, parenting young people has become challenging. When it comes to adding in things like mental health but even more generally, pressure, one of the hardest parts that I’ve experienced as a parent is seeing my kid feel that pressure and not being able to relieve it for them. How would you describe one of the challenges that you’ve experienced as a parent over the last many years of young adulthood?

It’s very similar to you. It’s seeing the anxiety that my kids have felt. The three girls each had their very unique challenges. I have felt it for very different reasons in very different ways. I realized that there’s a gap, not just in age but in technology and the world. It’s changed so much. What the world changed from my parents to me is not a fraction of what it’s changed from me to my girls.

With all of that, I was feeling, I don’t want to say helpless but how much can I identify with what they’re going through? I do think having gone through it myself, having maybe the difference between our parents and our generation, was a little bit more understanding of these issues. We all came out of growing up maybe a little bit more in tune with mental health, anxiety, and the challenges. I’ve always made a conscious effort to not forget what it’s like to be their age because it’s hard.

For me, it’s always been important to let them know that I certainly don’t see myself as a finished product. They see me as somebody who has it together, has a job, has had some success, and has done things in their life but I wasn’t always that way. I let myself be vulnerable enough to tell them, “I made mistakes that you haven’t made. I made a lot worse mistakes than you made. I was in a very similar situation to you when I was your age.” I was letting them have the understanding that we’re not the adults who have all the answers and we were also like them.

Advice For Student Athletes

We’re human beings. We make mistakes. For you to be able to be that open and honest with your kids, I’m sure opens doors for them to be able to be open and honest back, Jeff. That’s smart. Let me ask you this. I want to put you on the spot for one second. My audience is not only parents but also students. I’m thinking that there will be athletes who might be reading this conversation. I know that in athletics, not only do you have several coaches but you have a whole bunch of support staff. You got your teammates. I’m wondering. Do you have any words of advice for an athlete going through it? Let’s say they’re feeling depressed or anxious. They’re not themselves. Any words of advice?

Reach out. Coaching to your point, there are enough people, hopefully on a staff, on a code or in support. There are resources for you. The vast majority of people are in coaching. I do it for free. I volunteer at Saint Joe’s. I love being around basketball but more importantly, I love being around the guys that I coach. The reward is the relationship.

For me, it’s being trusted by one of the kids who play for us with the way they’re feeling with what they’re going through. Most people are involved in this because they love being around kids and they want to help kids. Know that that’s there for you. To be vulnerable is not easy. I get it but by and large, you’ll always be pleasantly surprised when you do the way people will receive it. For some reason, you’re at a place where you don’t feel supported and you don’t have those people. I’d probably tell you you’re at the wrong place. There are not many of those out there but they do exist. If you find that, then it’s probably not the right place and you should leave.

If you are at a place where you do not feel supported, it is probably not the right place for you. Share on X

Good suggestion. How’s the team looking in 2024?

We’re going to be good. We’ve been very fortunate. We’ve had good players and kids. We started with fifteen freshmen. It was a school that didn’t have men. In the first year, they had men. We had a team. Within three years, we had the number one team in the country. We’ve had good success. We’re trying to build on it but it should be an interesting year.

Episode Wrap-up

Good luck to them and you. One of the unique parts of this show is we ask for the conversation to continue. You and I will continue to talk offline about individuals who perhaps might be good guests in the future, Jeff. I want to thank you for your time. I know you’re super busy. I appreciate you making some space and allowing us to reconnect about such an important topic. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Jeff, you have a great day. We’ll talk soon.

You too.

Important Links

REAL SLX

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College Students

Mental Health Advice For College Students With Spencer Ganus

December 3, 2024December 16, 2024

College students have to juggle a lot of responsibilities every single day, and these go even beyond schoolwork. Some have extracurricular duties, while others have side hustles to focus on. Such hectic schedules push them to set aside self-care, and their mental health suffers the most. Marc Lehman sits down with actress Spencer Ganus, who guides high schoolers through college admissions. Talking all about her wellness blog and her own college experience, she discusses how young adults should handle the pressures of social media and the adverse impact of the pandemic. Spencer also explores the importance of time management, self-care, and being open-minded to exploring different passions.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Mental Health Advice For College Students With Spencer Ganus

Welcome Spencer Lacey Ganus, who is an actress and voice actress. Two of her roles that she’s known for are through Comedy Central’s South Park as Ike as well as Elsa in Frozen. We are particularly interested in talking to Spencer about Spencer’s wellness and lifestyle, social media blog that she runs. Spencer, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.

Spencer Wellness

Thanks for being here with us. We’d love to touch on a number of different things, but Spencer, and in many ways, love to hear a little bit more about Spencer Wellness, your blog. It sounds so fascinating.

It sounds great. I grew up in a very wellness-oriented family. I have been drinking protein smoothies since I was like three years old, and I was raised in more of a health-conscious, wellness-oriented household, which inspired me to want to live my own healthier life. That particularly came to fruition when I was in college and as I was graduating college and living on my own for the first time, on my terms, when I had the opportunity to either continue on the path that I was so lucky to be raised on or do the thing that a lot of people do in their twenties, which does not prioritize their wellness maybe prioritize other things in their life.

I was excited about the opportunity to take life into my own hands and continue going down a path that I thought was intentional. In doing that, I decided to share my journey. It started by posting recipes that were healthy or desserts or smoothies or fun things I was making in the kitchen, honestly over the pandemic when I had some extra time. It has since evolved into a much more balanced lifestyle. It’s now what I like to talk about, and the biggest value that I embody with wellness is finding realistic wellness and balance as a young person. I’m not giving up eating cake and like, I have a whole cake business, ironically enough, that I post about on my wellness Instagram page. That’s not healthy at all.

It’s like real butter, real sugar, all the things but it’s a creative outlet for me. I love being able to think for people and beyond decorating it, it embodies my value of having your cake and eating it too, and balance and living in a way that encompasses wellness and intentionality, but also not giving up the things that you love because I would be happy doing that for the rest of my life, and I don’t think promoting that is positive.

That’s where the idea for my blog came about. I have an Instagram page called @HealthyWithSpence, and then on my TikTok, I started posting more. It’s a little sillier. My Instagram is probably more intentional with my content, but it’s been super fun. I have had some incredible opportunities to work with brands that I align with, whether it’s clothing brands and workout clothes, food brands, or going to some fun events in Los Angeles where there’s so much happening in the world of social media. I have made so many friends and amazing, real, authentic connections through this blog with other girls and boys and everyone who shares the same values as me. It’s fun.

Intentionality

I have 1,000 questions for you. First of all, your cakes are amazing. You are very talented. They are beautiful. I love how you said that. The word “intentional” is such an important word. As a therapist, I run a virtual practice called U Are Heard, and and my therapists, I see students all over the country with mental health needs I get asked all the time What is the hang-up of getting assistance from a young person getting help when they need it?

I find myself saying that all the time to young people If you need assistance, get it. If you know all that stuff. The intentional piece is so important because young individuals often aren’t very intentional, and they go with the flow, even if the flow isn’t healthy and I don’t mean to judge when I say that. I mean that sometimes that path takes a person down a difficult trail. I have seen students, for example, not getting enough rest. I have seen students not get any physical activity. I have seen students missing classes regularly, and you know where that’s headed but being intentional is such a big part of specifically directing your journey and pushing it in a positive fashion.

I graduated from Duke University a few years ago, and especially at a school like Duke that had so many incredible opportunities, it was easy to not rest. It was easy to say yes to so many things when you have multiple interests, like someone the way that I do. There were times when I was going down that path, I wasn’t the kid missing class, but I was the kid missing sleep to go to class and to go to other things, and my mental health fluctuated, whether it was being anxious or stressed or overwhelmed, and not being in my best functioning, mentally healthy headspace because of things like lack of sleep or even my eating habits, too. Throughout college, fluctuated. It was in the post-grad years that I feel I have been able to cultivate a lot more mindfulness and intentionality, given that it’s always a journey. We are always growing, but I understand, and that was and still is me as a young twenty-something post-grad student, for sure.

Self-Care

It is a journey. Let me ask you about an interesting topic, self-care. When you think about the broad topic of self-care, about eating, sleeping, exercise, but it’s when I say the phrase self-care, what do you think of?

I think of all those things, and I think of it even more so encompassing what fulfills me. For me, self-care isn’t the physical eating, sleeping, drinking enough water, taking care of myself in that way, but it’s in the way that I have gotten to know myself, where for me, self-care at times is being alone, recharging, taking time by myself and recharging that social battery, but I’m extroverted and for me, more often than not, self-care looks like cultivating a group of friends who recharge and fill me and making time in my schedule to see my friends but it sounds so silly, but when you are busy and you might have been careers the way that I am, whether it’s with my relationship or with my friends.

Self-care is not just about addressing the needs of your body. It is also about being alone and recharging yourself. Share on X

I feel like blocking that time in my schedule. It’s something that is an act of self-care. Finding a balance between my entrepreneurial freelance artist life and having a normal life of seeing my friends on the weekend, most of them do have 9:00 to 5:00s. That’s been a huge piece of self-care that when I sacrifice too much social time or too much alone time, I think my mental health suffers from that.

For me, self-care is building a life of things that fulfill me, whether it’s time alone, or time with friends, and then personally, creativity is a huge value of mine as a creative person, whether it’s making cakes like you said, or writing, or I’m a dancer as well, and moving my body is something that fulfills me, too. For me, self-care is not about eating, sleeping, or drinking water, but it’s about booking a dance class and going for a walk.

Doing something physically. Moving my body is important to me. Often, that is coupled with something creative that gets my brain stimulated in a way that’s fulfilling beyond what I do for work. The last piece of self-care for me is grounding and being in nature. Getting sunshine is important for my mental health, and for having met gray in Los Angeles. I will go touch some grass anyway.

Connecting with nature, I’m so lucky to live close to the beach-ish, and for me, going to see the ocean and being in nature, seeing trees, getting fresh air is something as simple as going on my patio for even ten minutes in the middle of my workday. Self-care for me encompasses beyond the physical things you think of when you think of wellness and well-being, but also building that life of things that you know recharge you and fulfill you, whether it’s friends, alone time, being in nature, creativity, or moving your body.

You’ve learned a lot over your teen years and developed into a person who knows what she needs and like you said, life is a journey. It doesn’t matter. Are you continuing to learn all of that? From young adults, I want to highlight what you said, recognizing what you need and so for you, it’s creativity for someone else, it may be a workout, but recognizing you as a person and saying, “What is it that Marc needs? What is it that Spencer needs?” Making it happen. Even if it’s simply getting outside, getting some fresh air, getting a walk in, and recognizing, “If I don’t do this somehow I’m impacting myself negatively.”

It builds up, and you don’t have time for certain things, and then you realize. For me, like even something as simple as “I haven’t seen a friend all week. Why am I sad? Why am I feeling lonely?” I will call a friend up. If I can’t see them in person, like make a connection with someone if that’s what feeds me and that’s what I need. Do it. Take the time and make the time to do it, but sometimes it’s easier said than done, and at all the different times your needs can change as you said. For me, my needs changed too, and checking in with yourself and being on that journey, figuring out what you need at this present moment is another factor of self-care. It’s like spending time with yourself and getting to know yourself what you need and what’s best for you in the present moment.

Young Adult And Mental Health

You had an interesting age in that you are out of college, but I can still consider you a young adult twenties and approaching, getting into your career spreading your wings, and getting into that age bracket where people start thinking about relationships and families and all that stuff and I’m wondering, when you think about young adults and the mental health of young adults, so anxiety and depression in particular. Anxiety and depression right now are at an all-time high. Anxiety in young adults and depression are the statistics that are through the roof. I’m wondering, when you hear me say that, why do you think that is?

Being a young adult and someone who also has dealt with and still sometimes deals with anxiety, I go to therapy too, and I have, but a lot of time working on myself to be the stable person that I am, but everyone has their days too. Someone who’s not an outsider and what you are talking about. There are so many factors, and I hate to say it because I work in social media, but I do think a factor not be factored, but a factor is the age of technology and the accessibility we have to seeing what we may not have, comparing ourselves to other people, comparing ourselves to even, for me, past versions of myself that I have posted about online that I have to live up to. That’s a very niche thing for me, but that affects my mental health, is living up to the standard that I have seen created online of this person who embodies wellness. What if I’m not feeling so hot one day?

Suddenly, if I am not embodying this thing that I’m promoting am I inauthentic and spiraling in that way? Technology has a big effect on all of us in some capacity, positively, connecting us to incredible sources of information and being a creative outlet. I have seen more positives than negatives from social media, being in the field that I’m in intentionally, but I do think it’s taken a toll on my mental health many times, I do think the pandemic also had an effect on us.

I didn’t walk across the stage when I graduated from Duke and all my hard work. I got lucky that I even sat at a graduation, but we sat in masks, 6 feet apart, on the football field. They never called my name. They never shook anyone’s hand, and my diploma was mailed to me. It didn’t feel like the same level of gratification in a silly way for all the work that I put in, and that was a big bummer and that’s not to say that your anxiety is a product of a particular event like that.

Living in the age of the pandemic, post-pandemic, combined with technology, combined with my generation especially, there’s a shift with Gen Z of people who are more entrepreneurial, and it’s more acceptable to be a full-time freelancers, to be balancing multiple jobs, to have a side hustle. It’s a common language among my generation, and as someone who does have a lot of different jobs, I’m busy. I have my hands in a lot of different things, and it’s like maybe it’s my circle in Los Angeles being a more artist and entrepreneurial-oriented city, but in this city, there’s a lot of pressure to have more than a 9:00 to 5:00. If you think you have a 9:00 to 5:00, that’s all you have a 9:00 to 5:00. Do you have a side hustle? What do you do with your free time? Do you have a hobby? You don’t have a hobby? It’s like you go from 9:00 to 5:00, or what else do you do? At this age, with, again, social media, there’s this pressure to monetize your free time, monetize all your hobbies.

The age of the post-pandemic made Generation Z more entrepreneurial. It is now more acceptable to be a full-time freelancer, balance multiple jobs, or have a side hustle. Share on X

I have put this pressure on myself, and that’s been a huge contributing factor to my anxiety, is that standard? I have stopped for myself the pressure I feel from my generation to constantly be achieving and doing and leveling up, and it’s positive and if it’s not taken too far, and when it’s taken too far, it can take a toll on mental health. That’s why my generation is suffering.

College Admission

I would agree. As a therapist, one of the things that I see is the measuring stick has become social media. Right now, with young people, social media doesn’t exist. You were compared to the people next to you, the people you heard about. Now, you are compared to 100 million of your closest friends on social media. It’s never enough. Someone could be working a zillion hours, and in some ways, it feels like, why aren’t you working a zillion and one? When you look at the definition of mental health or happiness, that takes away from your happiness. You have to go. I see it. It’s funny. I see it mentioned, Duke. I see it when kids are applying to college.

I work in college admissions, one of my million jobs, and let me tell you. It’s crazy.

Essay writing and all that stuff. For me, 4.0 used to be the highest. Then it went up to 4.3, and now it’s 4.6. I’m like, what does it stop at? At some point, you say, “This is a person who’s intelligent, obviously doing well in school, but they are not at the top of their game and everybody seems to be trying to get to that top,” which is a pressure cooker.

The funniest part is when kids get out of college, and you probably know this to be true because you’ve been out for a while now, everybody has a degree. When you get out of college, you are sitting in a room. Everyone’s got no one cares at that point. Are you this or that? What they care about is what kind of person you are, what you bring to the table, and how hard you can work. Social media has been harsh. COVID has been equally harsh. It makes me sad to hear that he didn’t get to walk across the stage because everybody who works hard like that deserves that. They deserve that attention.

That’s a silly thing to bring up as a thing that I don’t think cuts it off every day but that’s like a microcosm of college being like everything about the hard work and everything about the product, and the college admissions process too. Working with these students, there’s pressure. Do you think it’s the parents often? It’s the students even putting the pressure on themselves, and the friends leveling up next to them? “My friend got in here, and why didn’t I get in?” It’s breaking up friendships.

The list could go on about the college admissions process and I feel like I’m grateful. I work with a company that has strong, amazing values, and that’s why I work in this space. It’s because we do a lot of free essay reviews and amazing resources we offer for people who are underprivileged and I work with students on scholarships as well. The only reason I get excited to work in this space is to feel like I’m making an impact, even if it’s on a small scale, with students who either would have access to these resources and also students who wouldn’t and that’s helpful for me as someone who always wants to align with work that is aligned to my values, because that’s part of living intentionally. Even for you to be able to have a conversation with someone a couple of years younger and remind them, “You are supposed to be pursuing this to be happy.” That’s supposed to be part of the process. Let’s not lose that. I could see you doing that and doing a good job of that. I love you hearing all that.

Thank you. Teaching at a school right now in person, is my first day. There are big kids, and they are all awesome. I get to teach in person. It’s such a treat. I’m like, “The connectivity versus Zoom. It’s not the same.”

How old are the kids you are teaching?

These are mostly rising juniors and some seniors, so all college prep work, but a little bit more broad writing skills and writing a personal statement and what it’s like to learn to express yourself more in an essay over the course of the next two and a half weeks. We’ll be working together. It’s a pretty long time to get to know each other and hopefully make a real impact on their writing abilities and their lives.

Time management

Another area I wanted to ask you about in terms of wellness that goes, it’s not talked about nearly enough, is time management and I always feel like the students that I work with going into college, most of them don’t use calendars. Most of them don’t even use email, believe it or not. To introduce them to that and then to link it to, “The more management you use, I believe the more you can drive your anxiety down because you know what’s coming.” I’m curious, what are your thoughts about time management? Has that impacted you?

I agree with what you said about minimizing anxiety. If not for my calendar I use the iCal app because it’s on my phone and my computer I cannot imagine what I would do without my calendar. Having as many jobs as I do and still trying to have a social life and still trying to take time for myself, I could truly not function without my calendar and honestly, without reminders, I feel like I’m the person where, even talking to you about scheduling the Zoom interview, if I don’t respond to a text right away and I open it, I’ve forgotten about it and that’s the truth about myself.

The more you get to know yourself, the more you know what tools you need. For me, I use my notes app religiously. I always have a to-do list, and I check things off every day. What I’m doing if I didn’t have my notes app where I was writing to-do lists every day, I would not know what I was doing. If I wasn’t able to mark emails as flagged or unread texts that I haven’t responded to yet because I’m in the middle of something, I wouldn’t get to it. Some people are better at micromanaging little things like that, and maybe they have more capacity in their brain to multitask in that way, the way that I don’t but learning about myself, I have learned what systems help me with these little things.

The more you know yourself, the more you know what tools you need. Share on X

Those little things are a huge contributor to overall time management when you feel more organized and you are able to block your time and your week, that’s when you have the time for self-care. That’s the only way I could function doing all of these different types of endeavors that I’m doing. I have even imparted some of this idea of organization to the students that I work with. I use organizational platforms. It’s like an online software that is like a Google Drive meets the Notes app shared feature, like a co-work space. Monday is similar, or Asana like all those kinds of workspaces, but I use Notion to help my students stay organized. They always have a to-do list and know what our Zoom link is and when we are meeting. They know what their homework is and what my homework is for them. Organizational systems like that for all of my businesses to manage my time are crucial.

It’s a work in progress for me. I’m still a work in progress in every way, and there are days when I do get stuck scrolling. Sometimes I start looking for inspiration and then I end up on my phone for an hour, and I’m like, “That wasn’t part of the plan. Let’s readjust.” Time management is key for efficiency, trying to do multiple things, and minimizing your anxiety. To do those things efficiently you have to have time management.

You juggle a lot. You are an excellent example of that and as you mentioned, the entrepreneurial attitude of young adults nowadays, there are many more people out there doing that and doing all things.

In college too, I can’t imagine not having a calendar in college, because it’s the first time that your class schedule isn’t eight to three. Your parents drop you off and pick you up, or you drive yourself and drive yourself home, maybe a senior year of high school. In college, I was part of two dance groups. I was the vice president of the Buddhist Meditation Club. I did like everything I could do on campus because I was like,” I wanted to soak up the juice. I wanted to take advantage of my time there.”

If I wanted to go to a party with my friends but I had a midterm due, I wouldn’t have known my midterm was due if it wasn’t on my calendar. Finding those organizational structures sooner rather than later, in high school, I even had a calendar. I had a crazy agenda. My mom, luckily, helped me in doing that and was like, “Make your doctor appointments.” I made my appointments and I could drive when I had races. Those are the things that I was lucky to learn from a young age, learning sooner rather than later if you are learning for the first time in college, is a little tricky, but it’s still better to learn in college than when you are 25, you get the real job.

First Weeks At School

I don’t know if you remember your first couple of weeks at school. Do you remember your first couple of weeks? What was one of your big surprises that you got to school and you were like, “I didn’t see this coming?”

I did an amazing pre-orientation program that Duke offered. It was an arts camp. It was like a student. All my counselors were older students. It was all freshmen incoming, and they divided us into small groups. I had this opportunity to get eased into the college experience, and that was the first surprise. I thought I was going to show up and it was going to be first-day-of-school vibes, where I’m a little fish in a massive pond, where I knew nobody. I flew across the country. My parents said bye to me at the airport. I got on a plane and went from Los Angeles to Durham, North Carolina very differently. I didn’t know anybody, and I was at first surprised with how excited I was and not anxious, as someone who usually does run anxious for new experiences out of my control.

Instantly found people who I shared values within this art space, who I could connect with over things like music, dance, and acting. It felt like a safe space and that was a very unique college experience. A unique entry to college that not all students are offered, but that a lot of schools have orientation programs to ease freshmen. I recommend taking advantage of that and finding people who you vibe with, whether it’s through a particular part of that orientation like maybe there’s a part of the orientation that’s geared towards a particular interest of yours. Maybe you play a sport, and there’s a sports orientation.

Going to the orientation with what might be your people not to say they are going to be your best friends. I didn’t even end up staying friends with most people from my program, but I did find some of my best friends through that program. It was surprising off the bat to find people across the country amidst this massive environment. We are expected to feel so anxious and isolated, but I found people who I shared things with. Looking ahead, it was surprising to see I didn’t say that about all of them. It was like I had my freshman week friends, and some of them were freshman week friends.

I would say hi to all and that was it. I was surprised and I wish I had been a bit less presumptuous of expecting to feel a negative way and a little more open-minded to knowing I might not feel anxious at all. I could get there and feel instantly comfortable and not feel like I wanted to run to the bathroom and throw up. That was not something that I ever thought would be an easy transition, and had I been more open-minded, the plane ride over would have been a little bearing.

Advice For Incoming College Students

That brings me to the last question I want to ask you. If you are talking directly to an incoming student, an incoming college kid, eighteen years old. All sorts of thoughts. Do you have a piece of advice?

Something that people told me that I didn’t believe when I got to college and this is specific but your major doesn’t determine everything, and what you choose to study does not determine your career. If you change your major, it’s not the end of the world. Every school has different protocols for certain applications that require you to pick majors in certain programs or are more competitive than others. Not saying it’s easy to go from being an engineer to an English major.

I do think that the pressure I felt to make a 5-year plan when I was 17 years old was pressure that I never needed to feel, with anxiety that I never needed to feel. I graduated. I studied literature, cultural studies, and philosophy. I co-published a book on the study of ethics, and now I’m working as an actress, a dancer, and a college counselor. I’m on your show. I’m doing all of these random careers that, frankly, mine are using my brain, talking to people, and learning to express myself. They have nothing to do.

Sorry, Mom and Dad, but for me the specific answer would be don’t stress so much about your major, or your five-year plan, all those little things are so insignificant in the grand scheme of your life. If you are going into a field that is technical, like learning how to do computer science to be a software engineer, try it, and if it doesn’t work out, you don’t have to do that for the rest of your life. You are not married to that but be open-minded with what you want to study.

Take it on a little bit of a larger scale generally being open-minded and knowing that things are going to work out, and things are not going to work out. You might think you met your husband during the first week of school, and then you realize you don’t think you like him at all. I think being open-minded, if I could go back in time and give my younger self advice, would be to roll with the punches and relax a little bit more. Enjoy it. People say it’s the best time of your life. Take those classes that you are like, “Maybe I want to study this. Maybe I don’t.” If it’s not that serious, if you don’t have it all figured out and that’s something I felt like I had to have a lot of things figured out because suddenly I wasn’t a kid anymore I was living across the country, and the pressure from the investment of the money and the investment of all the things that they make college out to be in the movies.

Enjoying it and remembering it’s supposed to be fun and educational. The last thing I will say is to take the opportunity to use college as your growth journey, battlefield, or frankly, you are going to get hit with a lot of things but using it not as a place to learn but as a trade school opportunity, but as a chance to learn about yourself and to grow. If the best thing out of college you get, besides your degree, is people skills and learning about yourself, then it was a successful college experience.

Use college not just as a place to learn but also as a chance to learn about yourself and to grow. Share on X

It’s not bad. It’s great advice. In many ways, you are saying, “Be willing to try new things,” and, “Attend new classes. Expand your horizons.” Most kids are going to school in different areas. Embrace that a bit. It sounds like a nice journey, and as you said, honestly, no one has a 100% lovely journey through college. There’s going to be tough days.

I call my parents more than once.

Episode Wrap-Up

In many ways, that’s typical. I always tell kids, I’m like, “You’d have to have a pretty awful house to not miss it at all when you go to college.” You are going to have some of that but the opportunity to open their world up in those ways is immense. I appreciate your time, Spencer. You are fantastic.

I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much. You’re awesome. I love your mission and everything you stand for, so I’m happy to support you.

Can I put you on the spot for one second? Part of what we are doing in the show is asking people that we interview to nominate another individual so that we can continue the conversation. You need to talk about wellness, and I didn’t know if you had a friend, a co-worker, a relative, or someone.

Not to keep it in the family, but my mom nominated me. I have so much admiration for how she raised me, and the intentionality I live with is such a byproduct of the house that I was raised in by both my parents. My brother is someone who embodies the same spirit. He launched a business called Collegiate Mind Mastery. That’s all about baseball players going on the professional track who are any age, from elementary through high school, and even some college students he’s working with now too. All about everything and what it takes to be a collegiate athlete from mindset and mental health to physical health and nutrition and everything and he built such an amazing brand and program with that. He’s such an asset to chat with.

That would be great. What’s your brother’s first name?

His name is Tyler Ganus. His Instagram is @TylerGanus. If you want to check it out there. He’s a whole brand there too, but maybe that would be a nice conversation.

I appreciate you nominating him. I will reach out. Spencer, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been amazing. I love the fact that you represent both college as well as post-college, and you’ve been very honest about things. I want to just make a point of saying this there are so many times that I will interview someone and they give me this glossed-up version of everything is perfect, and we all know that the normalcy of life is that we have our ups and downs. The way you put it out there, that just works. Thanks again.

I’m so glad. Thank you so much for your time. You are not an awesome interviewer. I appreciate it and good luck with your show. Hopefully, you get in touch with my brother.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Take care. Have a good rest of your day.

Important Links

About Spencer Lacey Ganus

Spencer Lacey Ganus , who is an actress and voice actress. 2 of her roles She’s best known for are the Comedy Central television series, South Park As Ike as, as well as teen Elsa in frozen.

We are particularly interested to talk about healthy with Spence wellness and lifestyle social media blog that she currently runs.

Normalize It Forward | Penny Jarrett | Young Adults

Young Adults And Mental Health Care With Penny Jarrett

November 26, 2024November 21, 2024

Depression and anxiety are among the biggest mental health challenges being faced by most young adults right now. Wellness coach and therapeutic art practitioner Penny Jarrett is here to discuss how they can look after themselves better through self-care. Joining Marc Lehman, she discusses how social media and the internet greatly contribute to young people’s toxic self-comparison and limiting beliefs. Penny also underlines how positive affirmations and addressing unresolved dreams and trauma can unleash your greatest potential.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Young Adults And Mental Health Care With Penny Jarrett

Welcome to the show. This is a show that talks openly about mental health and wellness. We are here to welcome Penny Jarrett. Penny is a mental health and wellness coach, a writer, a speaker, and a therapeutic art practitioner. She’s passionate about helping people overcome their challenges so that they can begin to live fulfilled lives, joy, and free of pain and confusion in the negative effects of trauma.

Penny, welcome. It is very nice to have you here.

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. I don’t know if that intro did you justice, if there’s anything you’d like to add, or if that covered it well.

It was lovely. I was feeling good listening to you describe me. I was like, “Thank you.”

It certainly seems like you’ve done a lot of different things.

I was about to say that.

Self-Care

You sound busy, which is great. Busy is good. Certainly, everybody that comes to the show comes with a different perspective and a fresh view of things. Our main thrust is to try to talk more openly about health and wellness and try to get a good sense out as much as we can to role model for our young adults out there how important it is to talk openly. When it comes to mental health and wellness, there are a number of offshoot topics that, if it’s okay, I’d love to ask your perspective on, beginning with the topic of self-care. I’m wondering. When you hear the phrase self-care, what does self-care mean to you?

Self-care, to me, is an extension of true self-love. When everyone talks about self-love and self-care, there can be loud opinions when people express things and we cling to it. We don’t dig deeper and personalize it for ourselves all the time. Even the topics being talked about loudly are great. If we think about the fact that love is a verb and it’s something we do and it’s not just something we feel, it’s a beautiful feeling when you feel all that love.

To love ourselves is not always going to be a feeling. It’s not always going to be, “I’m finally accepting myself for my flaws. I love myself. I feel all of this warmth, compassion, and fondness for myself.” Having those feelings towards ourselves is amazing. It improves our self-esteem. It helps us take opportunities and believe in ourselves, but it’s not always the case.

There’s a huge amount of people who don’t naturally feel those ways about themselves. We might feel sometimes that the reasons behind that can be vanity so we feel ashamed to talk about it. It could be something that has happened in our past, a mistake we’ve made, or the way that we view our family. This is coming from my own personal experience, and everything I’m saying here as well.

When you don’t have those natural feelings of fondness for yourself, the least you can do is love yourself because you are yourself. People often go to confidence classes. They want to love themselves. They want to feel a certain way. The way you do it is by loving yourself because it doesn’t always come naturally. I feel like self-care is a way to love yourself, and there are ways to do that.

I speak a lot at different events and stuff. We say, “Self-care is not just face masks, but a big portion of it is.” I, at one point, was completely like, “With self-care, forget the face mask.” As my self-care and my own wellness journey have come I wouldn’t say 360 because it’s not back where it was but has gone a 180 and then loads of sparkles and glitter, I’ve had to come back to the face mask, chilling, looking after my physical body, and resting.

Before, self-care, to me, when I was at the beginning of my journey was setting boundaries, saying no, quitting people-pleasing, and doing all of these things that were showing me that I was always trying to fill everyone else’s cup up and not my own. As time has gone past and those things come second nature to me, and I’ve changed, I’ve had to come back to make sure I’m loving myself with long walks, time alone, time connecting with people if that’s the season I’m in, and spending twenty minutes to do something for my skin and put that first. When you struggle, those are the things that are neglected. In a nutshell, and I am the least nutshell-y person because I’m always going off on tangents, self-care is the act. It’s an extension of self-love.

Self-care is an extension of self-love. Share on X

I talk to a lot of young adults. When it comes to things they can control versus things they can’t control, there are so many things they engage with in life that they can’t control. Self-care is one of those things that you can choose to do. You can choose to get enough sleep. You can choose to take those walks. You can choose to be good to your physical self. Setting boundaries is a topic by itself. We could talk about it for hours. It is protecting oneself, making sure that you’re not around toxic people, and you are saying no to people, which is okay to do. I love that. It’s such a big topic.

I try to promote the concept with young people of, “You have these choices. They’re not chosen for you. These are choices you have that you can do.” I’ve done the same throughout my own journey. We’ve learned a lot, and we’ll continue to learn. For young adults, in many ways, they’re almost beginning that journey and trying to figure that part out. Self-care, what a rich topic. I love your tangents. They’re great.

Thank you.

Mental Health

Mental health is such a weird topic. I feel like some people talk about it very openly and some people avoid the topic. Mental health, to me, is something we all have. Wellness is one of those things that fits in and, in some ways, is a solution or something that helps us that we can choose to have. Even seeing a therapist is a choice for many people. I don’t know how much of this you’re aware of, but with the population of young adults that I see in college, the anxiety levels and depression levels are through the roof. I wonder. In your viewpoint, what seems to be causing that?

Everybody who existed in the time when the internet didn’t, you don’t have to be a genius to point it out. If we think about anxiety and depression as an example and get really basic with it, I know it’s not basic or surface-level. I’ve experienced both at varying degrees, at times when I knew what they were and at times when I didn’t. That’s why these conversations are so important because going through something like anxiety and severe depression, not knowing what it is, is wild. These conversations are so important because you get to hear what people describe your experience. You can begin to come out of it.

If you think about anxiety, it is fear, and it’s not always warranted. It’s not always come from something. We often have difficult things we’ve been through or difficult experiences we’ve witnessed or endured, aka a pandemic, trauma in the household, stress, or different things we’ve gone through. We can then become protective and fearful about that happening again when it’s gone. For some people, they don’t. Some people are like, “That’s over. Let’s live.” Some of us become very hypervigilant and protective. We can’t move past that. We don’t always dig deep. That’s why therapy is amazing because your therapist asks you questions that help you to realize, “This fear that I’m holding, I am afraid of losing someone again. I am afraid of losing myself. I am afraid of dying.”

When you get down to it with anxiety, there’s a fear. It’s like, “I’m afraid of failure. I’m afraid of not living up to my own expectations or expectations of my parents,” but it’s never that loud. It’s always at the back but it steers the behavior and causes a constant knot. The truth is wellness is a solution but it’s also a destination. It’s a state. It’s a state of wellness, a state of well-being, and a state of joy, which we all have innately but don’t always access.

I go back to talking about the internet. When we’re over flooded with and over inundated with other people’s lives, other people’s successes, or other people’s smiles when we’re not happy, all of these things we compare naturally. We’re not sitting there saying, “Her life is better than mine. His girlfriend’s prettier than mine. His grades seem to be higher than mine.” You’re not doing it loud. It happens because we’re taking in all of this information so naturally. What that can cause is a constant fear that you will never live up to all of these things that you’re seeing. That’s one of the things.

Don’t get me wrong. I suffered from anxiety for years and it came from living in a traumatic environment, living in a dysfunctional home, and experiencing a lot of violence. I knew it was over. I knew nothing would make that lifestyle come back to me but I could not live freely. I had to really speak life over myself. I had to tell myself, “I am free,” regularly. I knew I was free, but my mind didn’t and my nervous system didn’t. I was as tight as a clenched fist for about six years. There are different sides.

If you think of what depression is and you break the word down, it is depressed. You pressed it down. What makes you feel heavy? What makes you feel like you are pressed down? What are these things? A lot of the time, when we dig deep and we get to some of the emotions attached, there’s a lot of bitterness, unforgiveness, and anger. There’s also a lot of grief and resentment for things that didn’t happen, things that we haven’t done yet, or talents that we’ve got inside of us that we’re not bringing out.

There is a lot of grief and resentment for things that did not happen or the talents we are not bringing out. Share on X

I coach people. A funny story is I wanted to be a counselor but I found out that I wouldn’t be able to hug anyone. I thought, “I can’t have someone crying in my office and I can’t hug them.” I was like, “I’m going to be a life coach,” at the time. It was like, “You can’t hug and you can’t tell anyone your personal life? Forget it. I’ll be a coach.”

I’ve hugged plenty of clients.

I know. Whenever I tell my friends this story because I’ve got friends that work in the therapy field, they are like, “You can so hug.” I’m like, “You should have told me that in uni.” I work with a lot of people who have ADHD. Common symptoms are depression and anxiety. They go hand in hand a lot. Whenever I dug a little bit deeper in the first few sessions, I’m not kidding you that over the past couple of years, maybe 70% of the people that I’ve worked with that are being treated for depression or have obvious depression have something inside of them that they are not bringing out. It’s usually a hobby that could have turned into a career, a talent, or a skill that they didn’t think would make them money so they pushed it aside, or a dream.

It’s not all the time, don’t get me wrong. I know there are chemical imbalances. I know life happened. I know this stuff. A lot of them are ashamed to even admit that they’ve got this dream. Why? It’s because of the fear of not ever doing it or not ever realizing it. If I was to answer your question after that massive answer in a nutshell, crippling fear from unrealistic expectations and comparison contributes towards a lot of anxiety that isn’t like an anxiety disorder, which can come from trauma. I know sometimes things come out of nowhere and then are related, but this is in my mind and my experience. A lot of depression comes from unforgiveness. That includes not forgiving yourself for your mistakes and also dreams, talents, and gifts that haven’t been explored, played with, practiced, or used.

I’m thinking a lot about that answer because I see that a ton in my office.

I’m not saying these things cause all of it, but a lot of the intensity and severity of the amount of anxiety and depression people are experiencing would be less intense if those things were paid attention to.

I hear that.

They contribute massively.

Young Adults

To take it a step further, I find myself advocating for young adults to get assistance when they need it. What’s fascinating about the age bracket of 18 to 22, which are the college-aged kids, is it’s the lowest age bracket out there in the US for people getting assistance. When you look at statistics, in many cases certainly with anxiety and depression, they’re the highest individuals that have anxiety.

You’ve got this huge disparity. A lot of things can cause that to happen. When I’m working with a young person and they’re heading off to college, talk about ambiguity. They don’t know what’s coming. You really got me thinking about that unresolved idea of, “I have a thought, a talent, or something inside that I’ve been too afraid to go after.”

It could even be an identity.

They’re like, “I’ll move it to the side and not tell anybody.” What a concept. It’s tough being a young adult.

If I am honest, a lot of the people that I’ve had those conversations with are usually a little bit older because time is getting on and that causes more pressure. Even though we know that you are as young as you feel, you can start fresh anytime you want, life begins at 40, and all of those things, there is still that tick-tock that goes on in the back of the mind that time is getting on, they’ve missed the boat, and stuff like that. It does apply. It’s the feeling that you are not living out who you really are. It’s not behind all depression.

As much as I love the internet, with people seeing how quickly someone gets famous, how quickly someone gets this change in life, and with lots of young people being completely addicted to these apps, it’s also like, “That would never happen for me,” or, “That isn’t happening for me.” It’s stuff like that as well. Feeling that sense of purpose and getting an understanding of why you are here or what you want to do while you are here is part of it.

I’m with you on that. A lot of times in therapy, I find myself drawing some of those inner thoughts out from my patients around, “What is it that you want to do in life?” I always feel blessed that I found counseling because I really like helping people and I like coming to work. I work a lot but I enjoy what I do. I want that for all of my patients whatever field they choose to be in. I see so many people who are unhappy with their career choices. To your point, for young people to be thinking about if those things that they’ve pushed to the side are causing symptoms, whether it be anxiety, depression, or both, that they could be considering as an option to take a look at and go after.

Social Media

The internet is an interesting one, Social media in particular. It has certainly had its bad publicity and good publicity. I certainly use it plenty for advertising my services and so forth. For a lot of people, that has become a way to connect with services and try to figure out who’s got what out there. There is so much comparison that goes on, especially for young people. The comparison is never like, “I feel great about myself because I’ve looked at social media.” It’s always negative. It’s always like, “Now I don’t feel as good.” You said the individuals that you work with are a little bit older. I don’t feel like there is an age where that stops.

I don’t.

At 14, 18, or 25, there’s this comparison piece that doesn’t make people feel good about themselves. It makes them feel less. It makes them chase, want more, or feel really bad about themselves. There’s a piece to social media that, to me, is so unhealthy and not helpful for people.

That’s so true. It also breeds this automatic expectation that you are supposed to do things in order to receive validation or an opinion. If you’ve got a social media account and you depend on likes and comments for engagement and that’s all it’s about, then how do you separate that into real life? How do you then say to yourself, “I want to be a singer. No one in my family was a singer. Everyone was a doctor. It’s an easy route for me. I’m already in school, but I want to be a singer. The truth is, my family already thinks this.” It’s not like, “Let me try and maybe I’ll fail.” People aren’t even fully afraid of failing. They’re afraid of people saying bad things about them and not liking them.

Back in the day or not too far back in the day, you’d have to send a demo to an agent or a record label. You keep doing that and see if you’re good enough. Now, before you even get to that point or before you even gather the bravery or the contact to reach out to someone who could help you with your career, you’ve got the whole of the public that have access to you possibly telling you you’re not good enough. These people, you haven’t even got proof whether they can hear or not. They might be a robot who sends the same comment to 100 people a day. That could ruin everything for you. Growing resilience around what people think of you is so vital but so hard.

Growing resilience around what people think of you is so vital but also so hard. Share on X

It’s important to remind ourselves about the false sense that we get from social media. It’s great when someone feels good about those likes and that engagement. That’s wonderful, but it’s such a roller coaster. It’s not real. This is not real life. This is not Mark saying to Penny, “You’re a wonderful person.” That’s real life. That’s a conversation. It’s computers. It’s robotic. With AI, you don’t even know if it’s real.

If someone listens to a type of music I don’t like and they say my song is bad, I’d be like, “I don’t even like the same music as you so it’s bad to you. We don’t even like the same music. Our ears aren’t tuned the same. Talking in that sense of singers, I was saying that as an example of hobbies, it can be something like that. It is thinking that people are going to have opinions about something you are interested in or feeling that you have to post about it anyway. There are certain age groups or certain groups that are like, “You post about your stuff.” You don’t have to.

Exactly. There’s an option.

People don’t have to know every single thing about you. While you explore, try different things, get to know yourself, get to know what you like, and turn down the opinions of others, which is a big task and I know it’s not easy, try everything. Try all the things you’re interested in to see which one lights you up. You don’t have to share it on the internet and see which other people like before you decide.

That’s a great point. That’s the nice connection between mental health, wellness, and social media. Social media is all about other people’s opinions. Pick a topic. You’re going to find plenty of people who agree with you and plenty of people who disagree with you. That tug of war never ends up feeling good. We don’t get self-worth from that. It’s not real as opposed to finding people who care about you, finding friends, or finding people who would say to you, “If that’s an area you want to explore as a person, you should do that. I’m really proud of you. I’m happy for you. I’m this. I’m that.”

Your point about posting is so good. When I say that to young people, they look at me like, “I hadn’t really thought I had the option to not post.” There are certain things in this world that should remain private, in my opinion. When we talk about wellness and mental health, unfortunately, the numbers for young people are pretty ugly. The suicide rate is high. The anxiety rate is high. The depression rate is high.

The one big thing I’d love for people to walk away reading this episode thinking is, “We might need to do things a little bit differently. The way we’re approaching wellness might not be working.” Especially for young people, it might not be working as well as it could be. Maybe we need to have some parameters around social media. Maybe we need to be digging in a little bit deeper and exploring more with self-care. Maybe we need to be doing things a little bit differently to get a better effect rather than saying, “I’m depressed. That’s the way it is. Things will eventually get worse.” There’s a better way. That’s a thought.

I’m dealing with college campuses on a regular basis. I have 2 kids, 23 and 21. From my perspective as a parent, it becomes a little overwhelming to think there are so many kids out there with so many difficulties in the realm of mental health. I would love to help all of them but I can’t. Certainly, I would love for them to be able to take some information about things we’re talking about. I’ve had mentors in my life who along my journey have made suggestions and helped me improve things. I really feel that as much as I love listening to elderly people because I feel like I can learn from them, young people can learn from us and some of the things we’ve been through.

Advice To Young People

Let me ask you in that vein in terms of mentors you’ve had or in terms of suggestions that have been made to you or things that have been said to you along the way that you think would be helpful. Let’s say you were talking to a young person and you wanted them to know something that you’ve learned over time that you think would be really helpful. What would that be?

There are a couple. The first one that had an impact on me during my own mental health journey and moments of crisis was, “Don’t believe everything you think because not everything you think is real. It’s not because it’s a predominant loud thought in your mind that it means it’s real.” It sounds basic, but if you are having a moment where you are catastrophizing everything, where tomorrow feels scary, where your hope for your future spouse and whether you’re going to get married, whether you’re going to do well in your exams, or whatever it might be, whatever’s causing you to get out of this present moment and into the future and start ruminating the worst case scenario, landing somewhere, deciding that’s it, and struggling because of that idea or that thought, catch yourself and say, “Not everything is real.”

That is huge. That’s like half the population of young adults out there. What a great, simple, really important concept for people to know because it is, number one, so truthful, real, and simple.

How many times have we wasted weeks, years, or months worrying about something, looking down on ourselves, or even so much as not enjoying ourselves on vacation because we feel like we don’t look nice? We see the pictures and we look wonderful. We think, “If I knew I looked like that, I would’ve been having a great time.” This is what we go through.

Being present at the moment and saying to yourself, “Not everything is real. The catastrophe that I’m imagining for next year might happen or it might not, so I’m going to live like it won’t,” is powerful. It is that shift. It’s a really present thing to do. It’s not always easy, but there are things that can help. Another thing I would also say is we are not taught enough about the power of our words. Don’t believe everything you think because not everything you think is real. Also, your word is your weapon.

We are not taught enough about the power of our words. Your word is your weapon. Share on X

Tell me more about that.

I say that because we’ve all heard of positive affirmations. That’s one thing. They have the power to rewire your brain. I’ve got loads of stuff on this. If you’re struggling with low self-esteem or you’ve got some options to make based on your future and you don’t know where to go because you want to do all the things that people your age are doing where you want to have a relationship and you want to have fun but you also want to stay in because you don’t want to be judged or anything to go wrong, have a few phrases that you say to yourself about yourself which are true.

A lot of the stuff we’re worrying about are lies that we’re believing. A lot of them are, “We’re never going to this. We’re never going to that.” It’s always something that has no evidence. Say a few things to yourself, and it doesn’t always have to be at the same time. It’s not a ritual or anything like that. You say, “I’m capable of amazing things. I believe in myself. I love myself.” They’re simple.

You say, “I’m not saying that to myself. I’m going to feel stupid because I don’t love myself. I don’t believe in myself.” Keep saying that to yourself. Do you know why? It is because what you say affects what you hear, what you hear affects what you think, what you think affects what you believe, and what you believe affects how you behave. It is not woo-woo. It is not spiritual. It’s facts. Your words are so powerful. If you keep saying, “I’m never going to be able to,” then you’re not.

This is an example. I had a friend who used to be self-conscious about her weight. Every time we got on a bus or anything like that when we were teenagers, she used to say, “Watch out, fat girl coming through,” to be funny. She wasn’t ever sad. She’s got a good personality. She’s a really funny girl. She used to do that all the time. I thought, “She’s only doing that because she doesn’t want anyone else to think it. She’s saying it.” She was saying, “Fat girl coming through,” to the point where I believed her. I thought she was fat. She wasn’t.

It took for me to see pictures of us as teenagers for me to realize, “This girl used to speak so much badness over herself.” I’m not saying that being a certain weight is bad because it’s not. People are trying to put on weight. People are trying to lose weight. Some people like to be bigger. Some people like to be smaller. I’ve been both and I’ve enjoyed both at different times. It wasn’t because she said it in a bad way. That’s not even relevant. I believed her. She’s a friend of mine. I trust her. I believe her. I know she doesn’t lie to me. When she says that she’s fat, I believe her.

If you were to say to me, “Tell me about your friend so-and-so,” I would say, “She’s lovely. She’s a little bit on the chubby side and a bit overweight. She is beautiful.” I would describe her because it would be what’s in my mind. When I looked back on the pictures, she was as thin as a pin. I believed her. Even walking side by side, I felt like I was walking with a big person. I never was. Her words were so powerful that they convinced me, and I have my own set of eyes.

Words are very powerful, whether it be our inner words or our external words.

Everything. They’re formed. When they leave us, they have energy. They have activity. There was a professor or scientist. He’s a Japanese guy. When I talk about this to people, they’re like, “You have to really believe it.” I’m like, “It would help if you believe what you’re saying because that energy also has a transformative power regardless.” It doesn’t matter who it is. Your words are powerful.

If you want to get down to the basic science of it, this guy was trying to figure out why plants grow better when you sing to them or talk to them. He took all the elements over time. He took all the elements of a plant, put them under a microscope, and spoke. He said loving words over the particles of the leaf, the soil, and the water, figuring out why this is true and why when you talk to or sing to a plant, it grows better.

They get to the point where they put water under the microscope. When they said horrible things to the water, made horrible sounds, and said nasty things, the particles in the water were all jagged. They were spiky. They were bouncing off of each other in a non-peaceful way. When he said lovely things like, “You are my favorite plant. You are growing so beautifully. Look at you,” and sang, the particles were all smooth and they flowed like a wonderful dance with 70% water.

If you don’t want to believe in the power of having to really get into it, look in the mirror, and get all meditative, which you don’t, to speak life over yourself, you don’t have to do that. You have to make a decision. You’re like, “I heard on a podcast that if I want to improve my anxiety, I need to start speaking life over myself. I know it’s not going to change everything but I’m going to try.” If you say, “I am free from fear,” every morning ten times, the strength that rises up in you, you’ll feel it. If you don’t, remember that the water in you, which is loads, will change physically because of that. If your waters are like that, then you are like that.

It’s a great point. I love that. I like simple things, and young people typically do as well. Anything that they’re able to glean from this conversation is beneficial. Anxiety and depression are complex things, but there’s a simplicity to how we view ourselves and the things that we do. It is not hard. Those are not difficult things to challenge yourself with. Wait and see. Do it for a week. Try it.

That’s what I was going to say. They’re not going to solve everything. Don’t get me wrong, I know this. I was diagnosed with ADHD, CPTSD, anxiety, and depression. I was even told there could be other things. I was like, “I’ve had enough. I’ll stick with these ones and keep it moving.” I get it. I’ve had the intrusive thoughts I’ve had. There have been times when if I weren’t alone, I could have gotten sectioned. The way I was feeling and the things I was saying, it was by the grace of God that I didn’t and I was out of it before someone came along.

Episode Wrap-up

I’m so glad that’s the case. I appreciate your honesty and your genuineness. You’re a very kind human being and a caring and considerate individual. Honestly, I feel like in the bit of time we’ve talked, you’ve given us a lot to think about and a lot of really great suggestions. I truly appreciate you taking the time. Can I put you on the spot one last time?

Of course.

As part of the show, I like to ask individuals I interview to nominate somebody, whether it be a friend, a coworker, or a relative, to be interviewed next to keep the conversation moving forward. I wonder. Is there somebody in your world that you think would be helpful to have on the show?

I would say my husband because he has a health management company. It all started because his son fell ill and was going through a mental health struggle. That made him leave his job and put all his time into his son. He could be someone great, but I could list loads.

We’ll get that information offline. I appreciate the suggestion. I look forward to meeting with him. I really appreciate your time and your energy. Thank you for spending some time with us. I appreciate it.

It’s a pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day.

You do the same. Take care.

Bye.

Important Links

Penny Jarrett

About Penny Jarrett

I’m Penny and I am a woman on a mission to help heal the world by spreading as much joy as possible and encouraging people to truly understand and love themselves.

I am a wellness coach, therapeutic art practitioner, Content Creator, Podcaster, Writer, Speaker and all round Lover of Colour. Attached to each of these titles is an avenue I use to go about my mission.

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental Health

Reframing Mental Health With Eric Kussin

November 19, 2024November 18, 2024

It is often said that one in five people suffer from mental health issues. This perspective is a bit flawed, because everyone is at risk of experiencing such internal battles no matter who they are. Marc Lehman discusses how we can reframe mental health and eliminate the backward understanding of its issues with Eric Kussin of the nonprofit organization #SameHere. Together, they explain how society and treatment must focus more on addressing one’s underlying trauma and less on being reactive to the disorders arising from it. Eric also emphasizes the impact of technology and social media on mental health, particularly for young people.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Reframing Mental Health With Eric Kussin

Welcome to Normalize It Forward, the podcast that openly talks about mental health and wellness. We are welcomed by my friend and colleague Eric Kussin, who was, for over twenty years, a professional sports executive. He got his start at the NBA League office, working with the expansion Chicago Sky, and then the NBA’s Phoenix Suns. He switched over to the NHL, working with the New Jersey Devils and the Florida Panthers, becoming the league’s youngest chief revenue officer. Eric has had some difficulty since then with mental health, which we’ll get into in a bit, and that has led him to launch his latest business called Same Here Global. Welcome, Eric.

Thanks for having me.

I probably didn’t do it justice.

I’m sure anyone who watches any podcast or video, when your bio is getting read, you cringe a little bit because if it goes too much into detail, you’re like, I sound like this heady person, and then if it’s not detailed enough, you’re like, did they learn enough about me? There’s no right answer to how anyone’s introduced. Don’t feel weird about that. Though it’s interesting, though, as long as we’ve been friends, I got to call you out on this in a collegial way. My last name is pronounced “Cusin.” I like talking openly and transparently when I know people are going to be listening because it’s like, you can know someone forever and something as simple as that.

Eric Kussin

My name is Marc with a C, and everybody spells it with a K. I appreciate the correction. That’s important. You want your name to be said and spelled correctly. I’m glad you said something. Thank you. Eric, tell me, you have such a fascinating story. Anyone who knows Eric knows he’s not a heady person at all. You have such a huge heart. Every time we talk, it is very clear to me that your passion for helping people and working in the space of mental health and wellness is super high. Let’s start off, if we could, just tell us a little bit about Same Here.

Same Here was born. Thank you for those comments, by the way, that means a lot. There’s a lot that happens in this space that I’ve been in, where, because mental health is becoming a bubble, people are realizing it applies to more and more people. My theory would be everyone, but there are a lot of people in this space who, quickly on the first phone call with them, they reach out to you on LinkedIn or get connected to you through a mutual friend.

Immediately, if you’re intuitive, you can tell that they’re in the space because there’s some endgame for them, or there’s a dollar sign that they’re chasing after, or, in this space, an exit strategy, which is a term that was foreign to me when I worked in sports, because you’re working for sports teams, you want to win titles. You didn’t have an exit game of like, “In 3 to 5 years, I want to make.” That wasn’t even something I thought about. Appreciate those comments because I’m in this space. When you ask about what Same Here is, it’s because of my own lived experience and how awful, and I say this in a loving way towards mental health professionals out there, because I don’t think it’s their fault. I think it’s a system issue. Am I allowed to curse or not?

You are, absolutely.

We have a very fucke*-up, backwards mental health care system that leads with disorder. The best analogy I can make is everyone on this planet is walking through a high school together. Over the loudspeaker, we’re hearing, “Third period, please go to your third-period classrooms.” Some people are jumping into science class, math class, English class. Most people, 80% of people, are going, “Why is someone even making an announcement over the loudspeaker? I’m just going to keep walking through the hallway because I’m around friends and talking.” That analogy is how we are looking at mental health as a society, who has it and has to go into the classrooms, the 20% of people in the year. The stat is 1 in 5 people have mental illness all the time, and then who doesn’t. They’re like, “Who gives a shi* that I’m in a class, we’re in a school. I don’t need to go into some separate subject because this doesn’t even apply to me.”

Same here was born out of my own lived experience, which we’ll get into. I didn’t think it applied to me because of the way it’s marketed. That’s a brilliantly deceptive marketing message by the pharmaceutical industry. Why is it brilliantly deceptive? Because when you make the topic binary, that there’s 1 in 5 people who have it, you make it reactive for the whole rest of society. They don’t think they have it, and guess what happens to that rest of society? Because we know stress and trauma are cumulative, they eventually do have it. You’ve got the 1 in 5s who feel like they’ve crossed the line and have symptoms, to go, “My life is falling apart, I feel awful, what do I do? What’s the fix?” We grow up getting strep throat, bronchitis, pneumonia, and going to the nice man or woman in the lab coat, and they give us the diagnosis and then the medication for it.

That’s what we think we need to do, and then everyone else, where I fell into that category, doesn’t think they have it. I don’t have depression, anxiety, PTSD, OCD, an eating disorder, alcoholism, or addiction, all the names that get put together in, “Well, I don’t have that, so if I don’t have that, I’m fine.” What ends up happening is this concept of what stress and trauma are, which are the sources of really the things that I just described or just named, are symptoms. They’re not diseases. You don’t ever get to the source. You don’t think about that source because you start treating, “Oh, well, I got to find what is depression and how do I fix depression? How do I fix my anxiety issue?” Same Here was born off of crashing because of not knowing that and trauma building in my own personal life, leading to me realizing there has to be a complete reframe in the way that we discuss, talk about, and normalize mental health. We are way too focused on labeling and diagnosing and not focusing on the fact that everyone goes through challenges.

There has to be a complete reframe of how mental health is discussed. We are way too focused on labeling and diagnosing people instead on how everyone goes through challenges. Share on X

There’s divorce, job loss, breakup, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, bullying, cyberbullying, sickness of loved ones, loss of loved ones, caring for sick older parents, moving to a new market, and being the one who’s isolated and doesn’t make a lot of friends right away. That’s the human condition that changes our nervous system states, which leads to this dysregulation, which leads to these symptoms that are then called disorders. The problem is, since that’s not universally understood, people don’t think they have it. We have these awful outcomes where people die by suicide, die by overdose. Same here is meant to say, “Why same here?” You and I, we’re the same. We can say that to every person on the planet, that it’s 5 in 5, not 1 in 5, because Marc, you’re a human being. I’m a human being. Anyone who listens to this, you’re a human being as well.

You’ve been through one, some, or many of that list that I just shared of those challenging life events. That means your mental health has been negatively impacted in some way. That makes the topic applicable to every single one of us, and then it becomes less scary. We can talk about it openly and share what we all go through. That’s a lot different than going, “Alright, the group of anxious people stay here. The group of depressed people stay here in those classrooms.”

Only you guys could talk, only soldiers know what PTSD is. They need to stay on their own, because they fought a war. No one else understands. The mother who lost her child at a young age, that’s a pretty harsh war that she’s fighting. It breaks my heart that the relatability isn’t there. I gave a long description to you asking what it is, but I wanted there to be commonality and understanding why we need to reframe.

Responsibilities Of Parents

Eric, I have to say that resonates so deeply with me. I’m a family therapist by background. I work with young people. One thing that I just, for the longest time, honestly didn’t understand but am coming to understand over time is how parents will bring their kids to every place under the sun to get ready for college, except for a counselor. Except for the support that we know, statistically, when we look at kids on college campuses, they absolutely will need it. I saw a statistic the other day that said something like 86% of kids at some point will reach that level, whether it’s a diagnosis or, as I call it, subacute, right below.

I look at all of the kids that I’ve worked with over the years, and those kids will go to college. They’re feeling decent, they’ve got some symptoms of stress or anxiety, but then they go to college, and all of a sudden, those symptoms climb. Maybe they reach a point of diagnosis, maybe they don’t, but clearly, there are lots of kids out there on every college campus that need assistance. I think one of the biggest reasons why parents aren’t thinking about it is exactly what you just said. We’re a very reactive society when it comes to wellness.

One of the biggest pushes that I’ve been making, and really starting this conversation to do so, is to get families to understand we are all involved in this. Helping your son or helping your daughter create some momentum going to college, or going to high school, or even getting out of school, towards their self-care, towards their wellness, towards things they’re able to do to manage life stress. Because one thing we can predict, and we know, is life stress is coming. It’s coming, it comes for all of us. The question really is, how do you handle it?

The issue on the parent side of things, which is interesting, because your practice and having people come and raise their hand and say it, and I can share with people, I’m not being critical of anyone who’s averse to it, because I didn’t know that it applied to me until I was 34 and the crash happened. I’m putting myself, raising my hand, saying I’m in your category as either a sufferer or a parent who’s not talking about it. I get calls all the time from people who are parents, because my friends are parents’ ages, and I haven’t grown up yet to get to that point. They’re so quick to put explanations on others in a way that doesn’t relate to them and their own parenting skills.

“Eric, do you have someone that can work with my kid on the perfectionist attitude they have on the soccer field? Do you have someone who could deal with the repetitive thoughts that they’re having when they get up to the plate and they’re batting and they can’t get out of their own head?” It stems a little into the classroom also, but I see it a lot on the ball field. That’s a much easier thing for a parent to ask for help about because it doesn’t seem like, “I did it.”

No, this is my kid when they are on the field, or on the court, or on the ice, or in the classroom, they’re dealing with something because of the situation. As opposed to when parents go, “Okay, we lost Grandma Millie three months ago, and Johnny hasn’t been coming out of bed over the weekends, he’s sleeping in until 2:00 or 3:00 PM. Okay, you know, Cousin Sarah is sick, and we go into the hospital, and, you know, Johnny’s been quiet recently.” They don’t share that second part, and the reason is because, and I see it in my own parents, I’m being real with people.

It feels, to a parent, like you think that you failed your child, that it’s hard for them to deal with these life situation things. It’s much easier when you see them dealing with it in situational things that they’re trying to be ambitious about. “Oh, how do I get them to be better athletes? How do I get them to be better students?” But no, in my house, no, look, we’ve got this under control. What I say to parents, because it’s your audience, is there is no perfect way to parent. What we go through in life as human beings, starting as children growing up, you could be the greatest parent in the world. What goes on up here in our heads, it’s the way that we’re wired.

It’s the way that we experience the world. I think Brene Brown is the one who tells a story. She had a client who was 35 years old, a beautiful woman, like lit up a room. The woman was what clinical psychology would call severely depressed. She’s saying, in her head, Brene is thinking, “What could be wrong with this? This woman has everything. She’s beautiful. She’s wealthy.” They start talking about the history and the past. “Tell me about your friends growing up.”

What goes on in our heads is the way we experience the world. Share on X

“Oh, I had a best friend who lived across the street from me.” Oh, tell me about that best friend. “She was really smart. It was back in the days when we would put the report cards up on the magnets on the refrigerators. My friend was really smart. She was really smart. She was really smart.” Brene’s picking up on this. It’s like, “Well, tell me about your relationship with your parents.” She said, “My parents were so supportive that they told me how beautiful I was all the time. I was in beauty pageants.”

And it starts to click for Brene. This woman, when she was a girl, was watching her friend get patted on the back by her parents across the street, talking about how smart she was. But because her own parents were talking about how beautiful she was, more so than how smart she was, she developed her own complex that she was not a very smart individual.

That’s a perfect example, hopefully, for parents, that you could be loving, caring, and supportive. My parents were amazing. When my brother was sick, they were driving me to every single practice there was. I look back, and I’m like, “Did they have seven cars to get me to all these places?”

They were phenomenal at being there for me, at hugging me after an event. What they weren’t great at, because it wasn’t their skill set, maybe I’m airing too much dirty laundry here, but it’s reality, I’m doing it for the help of other parents. My parents were not very good at talking about what was going on, because they themselves, it hurt them to talk about it. If my brother was sick, my dad’s way of dealing with it was saying, “Todd’s going to be fine. The chemo is going to work great. Everything’s going to come out great.” My mom’s way of dealing with it was to go into silent treatment and she pretended it wasn’t happening, but she didn’t talk openly about it. She would just be very reserved about it.

When you’re an 8, 9, 10, or 11-year-old kid, and my little brother is six years younger than me, you have these thoughts in your head. You’re like, “What happens if my brother dies? Where will he go? Will I ever see him again?” There’s no answer for these things. If your parents aren’t openly talking about them, you’re going to sit with those thoughts circulating around in your brain, trying to figure out what the answers are.

You don’t feel like you have the opportunity to open up and share. I share that background so that parents understand bringing your kid to therapy is no different than getting your kid a baseball coach to do batting practice with. I’d argue it’s more important than the sport or the grades, because this is the foundational work. This is the plate on which everything else lives. I promise you that they’re going through a breakup they haven’t said anything about, or a friend who said something hurtful that they haven’t told you about because they’re ashamed to tell you about it. There are things that kids hold onto, and having that support system is so needed.

Parents must understand that bringing their kids to therapy is no different than getting them to a baseball practice. Share on X

Social Media And Internet

It’s amazing, Eric. I will say, I’m the first one to say, I’ve been a parent for a long time. My kids are 23 and 21. I find myself saying, as parents, we’re guessing all the time, and oftentimes we’re guessing, we’re doing a good job of our guessing. We’re certainly making mistakes. There’s no playbook. We’re doing what we think is right. Like you said, if, in your mind as a parent, you’re thinking, “Nope, I don’t think therapy is going to be helpful to my son or my daughter,” then they simply overlook it. But to your point, let’s face it.

We live in a world that is so different from when we were growing up. Whether it’s phones, social media, COVID, all of this stuff has just shifted life. For young people, it’s hard to even compare life as a young person versus when we were younger. Eric, when we were younger, let’s remember, I would call a friend, I would talk to their mom, I’d leave a message, I’d wait a couple of days. They may or may not call me back. It was so different back then.

If you think of the science of what’s happening because of phones, because of access to media. Let’s just not even take social media for a second. Let’s look at what happened in the Persian Gulf war. When we were growing up, the video person would take footage of this light in the sky that looked like it was on another planet. You’d get no HD, it was grainy footage. They’d mail it back to the studio to then air it the next day on the news. Meanwhile, these kids are looking on their phones, and in real time, not social media, they have CNN or Fox News, or whatever their choice is of what they listen to.

I’m not trying to make it partisan. They see faces of children being burned. They see limbs being taken off. That, combined with social media and the comparisons, combined with the way that social media is built like a slot machine for updates. The fact that in your phone, takes social media out of it again, you get text messages, you get direct messages, we had beepers growing up. You had to go and call on a pay phone. Your email comes in 30 in a minute, as opposed to 30 over the course of three days.

That sympathetic nervous system response of the alert message, it wasn’t in place the way it was for us. We had this thing when we were younger called boredom. Like, it’s a joke. When I share that with kids, and some of them get the joke and some don’t, I was like, “We would sit around each other’s houses and go, we just played that video game because we only have three of them. We’re bored of that one. Let’s go outside and play.” You had to search for the next dopamine hit, but you didn’t know it was dopamine back then.

Looking back on it, I want to go play spud. I want to go play dodgeball. It’s fun to do that with friends. Those kids don’t need that. It’s literally here, and then in it being here, their brain is going “ping” over and over and over again. That exhausts the nervous system. The nervous system can’t take that. This concept of chronic stress and trauma, the list that I gave earlier of the divorce and job loss and breakup and all those things, that’s just the baseline that’s then compounded by all this technology.

You add up all these things that are building and building and building inside of us. It’s definitely not the same. These kids are going through worse. We’re going through it as adults at the same time as them, but we at least have the luxury of remembering what the time was like before technology and going, “Okay.” This is weird to say, but it’s true. I’ll be proud of myself if I watch a movie on Netflix and don’t check my phone. To me, that’s meditative. Back when we were kids, our parents would go, “Get off the TV. You’re watching too much TV.”

It’s a luxury now to be able to spend time on TV and not check your email. That’s what we need kids doing more of. It’s uncommon upon our generation because you have baby boomers who probably the technology is not common to them the way it is to us. For those of us who are the generation above these Gen Z’s and these kids that are in, it’s on us to go, “We understand the technology. We understand what it does for us, but you only know the world through the lens of this technology. You don’t know the world when there’s a calmer state. We need to help you find that balance.”

Self-Care

That’s an excellent point. I find that so often when I talk to young people, they don’t have that frame of reference. Shifting into that, Eric, because it’s a really important topic, self-care. Self-care is something within mental health and wellness that gets talked about. Parents may get on their kids to do this or do that. I guess I wonder, when you think of self-care, what does that mean to you?

The plug for this, only because I believe it in my heart of hearts, there’s a campaign that goes on social media, “Self-care isn’t selfish.” My facetious comment to that is, your campaign is not a very good campaign if you need a campaign to explain your campaign. People think of, when they hear the term “self-care,” things like massage and bubble baths and candles. That’s an important piece of a self-care routine. That’s why that phrase “self-care isn’t selfish” is there for you because it makes it seem like, “I’m doing stuff for me.”

Self-care is really work. That’s why we call it STAR, which is stress and trauma active release and rewiring, a gym for the brain. You got to make people understand new concepts, you have to make it analogous to existing concepts that they already do understand. We understand that the body falls apart over time if we don’t get to the gym and do something about it. If we don’t eat well, that means there’s work to do for our body to stay in decent shape. Obviously, there’s different levels of that, some people want to look like Mr. or Mrs. Olympian.

Some people just want to be able to live an active lifestyle where they can walk around the block without getting winded. That’s your choice of where you want to be on that. That same concept should be understood for mental health, that there’s work that I need to do in order to keep this in a decent place. It’s sad that that’s not the common understanding. The reason it’s not the common understanding is because there’s a pill for that. I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m in the 4-in-5, nothing’s wrong. I cross over into the 1-in-5. What do I need that fixes me? That’s like dealing with your heart health by saying, “I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine.”

I’m not taking a look at the scale as the weight goes up and up and up and up. “Oh, wow, I just had these pains in my left side of my chest. Let me go to the doctor and get the statin drug.” That’s not a way to live healthy. You need to get on the treadmill. You need to walk around the block. You need to get yourself active. When I think of self-care, I think of work. People don’t like hearing the term “work,” but you have to be specific with them and direct with them and say, “You want to feel a certain way.”

It takes a certain amount of work to get to feeling that way. We’ll make it fun. We won’t make it like what you were talking about, where people dread sometimes having the therapy session. We’ll give you mind-body practices. We’ll give you exercises that enable you to feel like you’re doing something that’s active, that’s moving the body. To not do anything is a recipe for disaster, and I’m a perfect example of that.

I like how you said that, Eric. I think many of us are, honestly, because that becomes the default of, like, okay, we’re feeling a little lazy, a little sluggish. We’re just going to default back to that. I’m a big fan of making sure young people and adults have actual ideas and things as they’re listening to conversations like this as takeaways. It’s like, okay, you know, what can I do? Okay. Eric’s talking, Marc’s talking, what can I do? The typical kid, when they go to a college campus, you said it best with the heart issues, they’re not paying attention to needing to do anything until they’re having that really bad issue.

Until their anxiety is at an 8 out of 10 and they’re feeling really awful, they may not choose to do anything, kind of the proactive-reactive. I’ll just throw this out. I’m a huge fan, obviously, of being proactive and recognizing, hey, if we just take care of ourselves, even if we’re doing one thing each day, getting good rest, getting some physical activity, don’t climb Mount Everest, just get some physical activity, eating a decent meal. We all have the ability to make those choices. I’m throwing it out because, to me, as far as self-care goes, if we make those choices, we’re taking care of ourselves and we avoid those issues. If we’re not, we’re waiting for them to come.

Also, obviously, I’m living in an idealistic world that I know we’re ten years away from this understanding. When we were in the 1980s going to the gym for the first time, there were charts on every single wall showing you what each piece of equipment did. There weren’t many colors that the printers could print with, so they were made out of brown. They showed the muscle groups in the body. If you lift like this, you’re working out the bicep muscle. There’s a misunderstanding with mental health that when your mental health is off, it’s strictly this thing called the chemical imbalance. Let’s put chemicals in to balance out the imbalance.

When the reality is your amygdala starts to become over-functioned. It starts sending beta and gamma waves out throughout the rest of your body and telling your HPA axis, “We got to start shooting cortisol throughout our adrenals so that the rest of the body gets into an activation mode.” Our vagus nerve starts to lose vagal tone. It goes from being this rubber band to being more strict like this because we’re holding ourselves like this all the time. Our gut becomes porous, and we start to get gut overgrowth as well as gut dysbiosis. I’m throwing out geeky science terms for a reason.

Those are the equivalent of the muscle parts that we saw in those pictures in the 1980s that got us doing the exercises for it to become second nature for us to know, “Okay, if I want bigger shoulders, I do these things called shoulder flies or shoulder presses. That’s my deltoid muscle.” We need people to understand that the events of stress and trauma start to impact the structures in our body. The structures in the body, there are exercises, when you ask about self-care, I’m diving deeper into it, that I can do, what does tapping do on what meridians are and what even are meridians and how do meridians start to get clogged? What does havening do on that amygdala function to start to dampen those beta and gamma waves and start to get it going in alpha wavelength? If we don’t understand those things, one, what are we doing?

You don’t go to the gym and run on a treadmill, not knowing why you run on the treadmill and just sweat. You run on the treadmill because you go, “It increases my cardiovascular health. I’m allowed to, I’m able to, I should say allowed to, I’m able to run and walk longer distances. I can pick up my kids when I want to. Maybe I’ll have this benefit of losing weight because there’s a caloric deficit versus what I ate. Sure, I’ll go on the treadmill,” and then we get on the treadmill. We don’t have that in mental health with the exercise. We have, and you’ve seen the meme, and I hate the meme, and it devalues what you all do as practitioners.

It’s a person sitting across the couch from a practitioner. The person has all these tangled-up balls of yarn in their head. You, the practitioner, are the one that’s untangling them and putting them into new separate colors. That is telling people you need to go to Marc so that Marc can fix you with his magical powers. That’s not how therapy works. It’s not how self-care works. It’s Marc’s giving you the tools for you to do the work. You understand how to work on yourself so that you have control and agency in this. We’re far away from that because, I beat a dead horse on the pharmaceutical industry, but we have a system, and it goes back to me saying that our mental health system is fucke* up, we have a system that works for a lot of people.

If CBT and DBT, not to knock them because they’re great, but if those are the gold standards in what you do when you go to a therapist, and med management is the gold standard when you go to get medication, and it stays within that, what that does is keep a recurring revenue model of patients continuing coming back. Why is that going to change when the system is based on that? It’s not going to change. We got a ways to go in terms of educating people and getting the folks like you and the folks who are part of Dr. Plainer Same or Psych Alliance to go, “Guys, there’s ways for you to actually get to the source and start to heal so that you can start to do some of these things on your own. You don’t have to be in therapy with me forever.”

Not that being in therapy is a bad thing. Do maintenance therapy once a month, like have a person that you check in with, do it through telehealth, but I’ll land the plane on that comment with this, I think of the show The Jeffersons, and I remember a scene, it was a scene in every single sitcom we had growing up. Helen is the neighbor, and Weezy Jefferson goes, “Oh, Helen, you’re looking great lately.” She made some comment like, “It only took me 30 years and my entire life savings of therapy to get to this place.” It was a joke back then, but it’s real. It’s like you’re putting that much time and effort and money into feeling better to get to this place. It makes no freaking sense. How do we learn the exercise and the practices so that we can start to take more of the control along with the guide from the therapist?

Stigma Of Trauma

I think you make a number of good points, Eric. I want to just expand on one for a moment. I run into a lot of parents that, when you use the word trauma, it got me thinking. I run into a lot of parents that will say, “Well, my son or my daughter, they haven’t been traumatized. They haven’t had this. They haven’t had that.” I sat back and watched the shi* show that went on on college campuses last spring, and how college campuses couldn’t get encampments off campus and all of that. I remember seeing an interview with a young person. He was a freshman, I won’t mention the school’s name, but he was a freshman.

He was being interviewed, and he looked right at the camera and said, “This wasn’t on the tour.” I thought, spot on, my man. Like, you know what? It wasn’t. There’s stuff happening for young people we can’t predict. I can’t tell you how many times, Eric, and it’s really sad. I’ll get in a meeting with a young person and say, “How was your week?” They’ll say, “Not very good. Someone killed themselves in my building this weekend.” They didn’t even know the person, but it’s a contemporary. Those are all traumas.

Look at what your comment ties back to what we were talking about with parents’ readiness and willingness to bring their kids to therapy. Saying, “My child’s never been through anything traumatic,” is a protection mechanism of the parents saying, “I’ve never put them through anything traumatic.” They want to believe that they’ve created this cocoon around their kids. That’s why I brought up the Brené Brown examples. You don’t know what’s going on in your kids’ minds. It starts with helping a parent to understand trauma is not specifically an event that was awful that happened. Trauma is anything that they experienced that overwhelmed their ability to cope in the moment. That could be applied to anything, like being broken up with.

Trauma is not specifically an awful event that happened. It is an experience that overwhelms your ability to cope in the moment. Share on X

If you’re fourteen years old and what they call puppy love, which is a bullshi* term for it because that’s trying to minimize what someone felt, that’s the first time a human being fell in love with someone, even if it was a three-week relationship. That person gets broken up with, and what kids do, that boy or that girl is seen with someone else right away. That crushes that person. The ability to feel in that moment and cope with that experience of being crushed, the child doesn’t have those, and then all of a sudden, they think, “I can’t tell my mom or my dad about this because it seems weird that I got dumped and I’m a loser,” and that is trauma.

I give that example, and I’m sure you give these examples when you speak with clients who come in, because we have to normalize that trauma is not someone’s head went through a windshield. That’s one thing that’s possible, but there’s so many other traumas that happen that is that inability to cope in the moment and being overwhelmed by it. That should not be something that we’re shamed of. That should be something, if anything, that’s a badge of honor, that we’ve been able to overcome and get to this point that we’re at, given what we’ve had to live through.

We have to normalize that trauma is not as if someone’s head went through the windshield. Share on X

Eric, I have to say, it’s a great segue. I have told so many people over the years about Same Year, and it’s amazing to me how many people, the next time back in my office, will remark on 5 and 5 because it resonates. It resonates with people to say, “You know what? I’m a human being. Eric’s a human being. They’re human beings. We are all susceptible to shi*. It just happens.” I think when we get to that place, we normalize this conversation and bring it into a focus of, guess what? We don’t have to be scared of this, but we do have to deal with it. It’s really important.

The 5 and 5 thing, which is funny, is because people will skeptically, when they come back to me, and I’m of the belief that 1 in 5 is a planted statistic because of the deceptive marketing that I shared, and then I’ll say, “Well, in a space where people are looking for there to be improvement, don’t you think instead of continuously saying 1 in 5, they might say things like, Great news. We’re down to 19.3% instead of 20%?” You’d never hear that movement. They’re like, “Yeah, but Eric, wouldn’t that be better if it was 3 in 5, 4 in 5, like, because then more people would think to get help?” I say, “No, the second you make it binary, it doesn’t matter if it’s 4.9 in 5 or 5 out of 5, you’re telling a group of people they don’t have it.”

That’s why I disrespect, with all respect, the NAMI’s of the world and the Mental Health Americas of the world, because they’ve started to use the “everyone has mental health” message, but it’s always coupled with “1 in 5 people have mental illness.” The reason they’re doing that is because they’ve got a group of people they’ve protected, that have donated to them, that are the parents of the quote, mentally ill group that think, yeah, everyone has mental health, but my kid has it worse. Your group sticks up for my kid. My comment to society, that group of people, and everyone else is this concept, the stigma that everyone talks about and bandies about is on every single podcast, that never goes away if you keep people in separate groups. If you want to say, “you have it worse,” congratulations, like you can make that claim all you want, but what’s that?

It’s not a contest.

It’s not a contest. If you want to even hold onto it as a contest and believe, because of your symptoms, I’m someone who was in bed for two and a half years, couldn’t function, I don’t want that to be the understanding that I had it worse than other people, because then the person who only has it for three days instead of two and a half years will never relate to me. We have to be on the same team. If not, that concept of stigma never goes away. When Kevin Love says, “I had anxiety and a panic attack, and I ran off the basketball court,” and Michael Phelps says, “I had depression and suicidal ideations,” and Simone Biles says, “I had depression. I had to pull out of the Olympics,” that’s not normalization. The reason that’s not normalization is because it’s doubling down on the existing erroneous message that all mental health is if you have a disorder.

We need Michael Phelps and Kevin Love and Simone Biles to talk about what they went through in their life so that we can show we all go through things. Simone Biles’ story is a lot stronger when she talks about the rape with Larry Nassar. I know it’s very difficult to discuss, but she has talked about it openly at some points, her brother being on trial for triple murder. Those are things that are traumatic to our system that, “Oh, my brother got in legal trouble,” “Oh, my friend was the victim of rape,” or “I was the victim of sexual abuse.” That’s relatable in a way that labels are not.

Subacute

Here’s the thing. I can only say, as a therapist, Eric, that so often I’ll have a family come into my office, and there’s an identified patient. “My son, my daughter has Asperger’s, or has this, or has that.” As a therapist, you just become attuned to watching for certain things. Quite frankly, I would say a very large portion of our population is what I would call subacute.

They don’t meet the criteria for the DSM, but do they have symptoms? What the fuc* is the difference? Honestly, I’m the first one to say it. What’s the difference? To me, if you need some assistance, number one, get it. Number two, look at that and say, hey, we can all live a happier lifestyle. We should be talking about it more. We should be making decisions on a regular basis for our wellness, and we should stop shaming everybody.

What you’re describing there is why the continuum model, I think, is so important and why we use the scale. In polyvagal, they call it ventral vagal, sympathetic, dorsal vagal. We call it thriving, gliding, surviving, fluctuating, struggling, sinking. I ran through that quickly just to say the fluctuating and the struggling, which are to the right before the final place to the right, which is sinking. Fluctuating and struggling is what I would agree with you on as where most people live. It’s over-sympathetic nervous system dysregulation, where, whatever their genetic makeup is, that increase in sympathetic response has been going on, and they’ve been thinking about things over and over again.

They’ve been through a lot of difficult events in their life. They’re starting to see, based genetically on how they’re wired, those symptoms start to manifest. For someone, it looks like the way they get through the day is washing their hands fifteen times. For another person, it looks like, I know I’m talking about OCD things, but they get sweaty palms before they go into a meeting. As long as they wipe their hands off and clean them off, they go into the meeting, and they can feel more confident. We have to start to notice those things as signs of dysregulation that’s leading towards, to your point, what modern psychology would call clinically depressed or anxious.

We just call it sinking, which is you’re at this place where the sympathetic response has been going on for so long that your neural pathways have been wired in that way, where you’re stuck in that spot. It’s hard to get out of this spot unless you’re given the tools from someone like a Marc who can help you get out of it. You get to use those tools throughout the rest of your life to start to keep yourself out of those ruts. If you see it on a continuum, you at least can go, I’m moving to that place. My thoughts, my feelings, my behaviors are changing to that spot. At sixteen years old, when the ambulance would go by, when I was playing basketball Saturday and Sunday, every single weekend, it was two miles away from my house.

My brain kept going, that ambulance is going to be at my house when I get home. It’s going to be at my house when I get home. That is subacute in the place that you’re describing it. That’s what we would call on our scale, either fluctuating or struggling, depending on having those repetitive thought patterns over and over again of catastrophizing, that I didn’t know at the time that that was a maladaptive thought pattern. I just thought it makes sense because my brother’s been sick a lot before. That thought’s still in my head. That doesn’t mean it’s healthy, and we should keep it there. We should do something about it. That’s why we wait and we wait and wait until these crashes happen.

Episode Wrap-up

You make an excellent point. I push the concept of being proactive because we don’t have to wait. As parents, I think it’s important for parents to hear that message. As you mentioned before, typically parents wouldn’t see symptoms in their young kid, let’s say physical symptoms in their young kid, and ignore them and let them build up and wait and wait until they have a heart attack. Why would they do that in this case? Look, first of all, I have to say, I could talk to you all day long, Eric. I think your passion and mine are definitely in line. I really appreciate, number one, your time and your energy. If you guys haven’t seen Eric’s Instagram, check him out. Your videos of you’re sitting in small chairs for an individual like yourself, Eric, are hysterical.

You can laugh out loud. You do so much good work out there, Eric, really. I want to point people to you. I want people to understand what Same Here is. More importantly, I want to normalize this conversation. I want wellness. I want mental health to be out there. I want people understanding the more we’re able to talk and share situations and stories and be honest, which you are all the time. I really appreciate that. The more we’re able to guide this conversation in a healthier manner. Thank you. Thank you so much for all of that.

I’m glad you’re doing these podcasts. I think the more people encourage other people to continue to listen to your podcast here and then encourage people to have these conversations like we’re having with each other, because it doesn’t normalize on its own. Campaigns do not normalize. I appreciate you saying 5 and 5. I think that helps us start the conversation.

We need people who are peer support advocates who get out there and go, this is my stuff. I’m not ashamed of it, and you probably have that stuff too. Let’s talk about it. If all you need to do is just listen to me, that’s fine. I don’t need you to say anything back to me, but just hear what I have to say, and eventually, you’re going to feel comfortable enough opening up to me.

I really appreciate your message, Eric. If I could put you on the spot as well for a moment, Normalize It Forward. The concept behind it is what I’d like to do is ask if you had an individual in your world, either a friend, coworker, or relative, that you think would be helpful for me to interview next so that the conversation could continue. I’d love to just get your thoughts on that. Anybody come to mind?

It must be serendipitous that you asked that question at this time, because my phone rang as you were asking the question. There’s a guy who’s got a good following too for you in terms of how to help with the reach of your podcast. His name is Ryan Phillips. He was a professional hockey player. Didn’t make it to the NHL ranks, but sexual abuse, abuse by coaches, and has been through a rigmarole of different treatments and been all over the country, been all over the world.

He’s Canadian-based when I say all over the country. He did a bike tour all over Canada, but he’s one of the few people who I’ve spoken with who, from a lived experience perspective, he just lets it rip and there’s no guard up whatsoever. He’ll tell you what he’s felt and what he’s been through. He’s a good soul and a good person who wants to help people.

Awesome. I appreciate it. We’ll connect, get his information, and get him on here because he certainly sounds like a valuable individual to continue this conversation. Once again, Eric, thanks for your time. Thanks for your energy. I really appreciate it. We’ll talk soon.

Awesome. Thanks, Marc.

Take care.

About Eric Kussin

Eric Kussin is a magna cum laude grad of Cornell University and 20+ year professional sports executive, who got his start at the NBA League Office. After five years with the League, he went the team business route and rose the ranks with the expansion Chicago Sky, and then the NBA’s Phoenix Suns.

He then switched over to the NHL, working with the New Jersey Devils, & Florida Panthers, becoming the League’s youngest Chief Revenue Officer. However, a debilitating mental health crisis stopped Eric’s career and life in its tracks for over two and a half years. After many failed treatment modalities, he was lucky enough to learn healing practices that enabled him to dig out of his abyss, and found a higher calling, launching a non-profit at the end of 2017 called, #SameHere – The Global Mental Health Movement. #SameHere’s Alliance is comprised of athletes and celebrities, along with media members, expert practitioners, advocates, and everyday heroes who’ve come together to make talking about mental health a common topic for “5 out of 5” of us.

Their #SameHere Movement has swept across college campuses in the US from Cornell to USC, K-12’s, Corporate Offices from CNBC to JPM Chase, Professional Sports Teams from the Golden State Warriors to the New York Mets, and military & first responder groups from the NYPD to the DOD. The Movement has recently begun to expand globally as well, with events in markets outside of the US. Eric hosts a podcast called “We’re All A Little ‘Crazy’” with NHL great Theo Fleury, and has launched an app called the: SameHere Scale to normalize emotional health monitoring & daily check-ins. To “keep his foot in sports,” Eric consults for a number of professional sports teams and leagues, guiding their ticket and sponsorship sales and retention efforts.

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