Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Emma Benoit | Suicide Rates

 

Suicide rates among young people have been skyrocketing for the past couple of years. Most of them are pushed to their limits because they do not have safe spaces to be vulnerable and support systems that make them stronger. Emma Benoit attempted to commit suicide at 16, and now she has dedicated herself to addressing this ever-growing problem. Joining Marc Lehman, she explains how she uses public speaking to eliminate the stigma surrounding mental health and young people’s obsession with creating a picture-perfect image of themselves. Emma also shares valuable tips on how parents can better support their children and help them take care of their mental health the same way they do with their physical bodies.

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Addressing Alarming Suicide Rates With Emma Benoit

Welcome to the show. I’m so excited. We are meeting with Emma Benoit. I’m so excited for her to tell my audience a little bit about herself rather than me stumbling through her intro. I’m going to give her an opportunity and a moment to do that.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Emma Benoit | Suicide Rates

 

Emma, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me.

Introducing Emma Benoit

We are here to talk about mental health and wellness in general. I’m excited to have you on because you have a viewpoint that our audience will be excited to learn. Without further ado, maybe I could toss you the mic if it’s okay and have you tell my audience a little bit about yourself.

I am from Louisiana. I was born and raised here in Louisiana in a middle-class family. I was your typical picture-perfect-on-the-outside all-American girl. I was a cheerleader. I had a lot of friends. I came from a pretty happy home on the outside but internally, I was struggling with my mental health and my emotional well-being.

I struggled pretty consistently for several years without ever facing those struggles or feeling comfortable being vulnerable with someone and opening up and navigating those emotional challenges that I was facing. I struggled in silence for more of my upbringing than what I would’ve liked to struggle for. I was in an uncomfortable situation with my struggles because of that exterior image that I described.

Typically, when you think of someone who struggles with their mental health and their emotional well-being, automatically because of stigmas and stereotypes, there’s this image that people think of. Lower class, a separated family, maybe some abuse in the home, and things like that typically come to mind when most people think about these kinds of struggles with depression and anxiety. With my story looking completely different from that, I often felt a lot of shame around my struggles and my emotional challenges. It is because of that that I believed in the stigma and felt ashamed of my feelings so I never reached out for help.

I struggled in silence, trying to manage my own feelings, stressors, and fears all on my own. Ultimately doing that for far too long put me in a position where I started to develop some pretty nasty, negative thoughts. I started to experience suicidality and thoughts of suicide. I struggled with those thoughts for quite a while before attempting suicide myself. It got to be too much for me to navigate and manage all on my own.

Without the resources, the tools, or the support in place, I felt extremely hopeless. All of those struggles and feelings culminated and resulted in a suicide attempt when I was sixteen years old. It was the summer before my senior year of high school when I attempted to take my life. Fortunately, as I’m here speaking on your show, that attempt didn’t work. It was not successful. I’ve come on the most unpredictable but most gratifying journey since.

Getting to reflect on the way that I was processing hard things, the feelings I was having, and learning things that I wish I had learned prior to my attempt gave me this sense of purpose. I decided to use my lived experience and the things that I had overcome and gone through to try and raise awareness and start important conversations like these to educate people on the resources available to them and ultimately remove the stigma. That is my goal in sharing my story and my lived experience. It’s to remove that stigma that keeps so many people struggling in silence for far too long.

Let me say I am so glad that the attempt didn’t work. I’m sure many others who have met you along the way are as well. I knew you’d do a better intro than I would. I’m really glad you told us your story. One thing you didn’t add that I will is that you speak all over the country about what happened. You’ve been on a number of shows and a number of campuses of middle schools and high schools. I’m sure you’ve touched and resonated with many people. In all honesty, that’s one of the biggest reasons I was so excited to interview you. Number one, you’re a wonderful human being. Number two, there are a lot of people out there who have experienced very similar stories.

You are 100% right. I have been given opportunities to travel the country, share my story, and get the chance to interact with young people and hear their testimonies. It’s all too familiar. I feel like there is such an epidemic of mental health, especially suicide. The youth suicide rates are at an all-time high. Our stories are oftentimes very parallel. There are a lot of similarities and things that young people can see within me that they see within themselves.

It really is such a great thing that I get to do with getting to share my story, go to schools, and speak to groups of people who have similar experiences and similar struggles. Ultimately, whenever you share your negative experiences, so to speak, or when you share a sorrow, that becomes half the sorrow. Whenever you open up and you have a hard, vulnerable dialogue with people, it gives them  the freedom, for lack of a better way to put it, to feel like, “This is something that I can overcome and it’s okay not to be okay.” It’s giving people the space to feel seen and heard.

What has been such an incredible gift that I’ve been given with getting the chance to share my story so publicly is getting to help people in such a profound way and show them, “Your vulnerability isn’t a weakness. It’s a strength.” It has been an incredible gift that I’ve been given helping them feel empowered to use their voice, advocate for themselves, and get the help that they need and ultimately remove that stigma. If we can get to a place in society where mental healthcare is seen as the same as physical healthcare and prioritized the same as physical healthcare, then we have achieved a very large goal there.

I oftentimes tell groups and students that I get to interact with and speak to that we have to reframe our perspective and create a new narrative in our minds when we think about therapy, counseling, and mental health care and truly see it as a gym membership for our brains. That’s what I tell people. I say, “When you are going to get a gym membership for your physical body, no one shames that. No one puts a stigma around that. Everyone is encouraging. They’re like, “That’s amazing. You’re getting physically fit.” With mental health and mental health care, oftentimes, it’s like, “What happened? You’re not going through anything too serious, are you?” It’s about shifting that perspective.

We must reframe our perspectives and create a new narrative about therapy and counseling. They are like gym memberships for your brain. Share on X

I am so in tune with what you said. As a therapist, I’ve been treating people for 25 years. A few years ago, I created U Are Heard, which is a virtual platform where we see college students. One of the first things I noticed from kids when I started meeting with them virtually was this notion of like, “I can do this in privacy. I can do this right from my desk, a library room, or wherever it might be. I can get the help that I so need without having to feel shame, without having to feel judged, and without having to feel all of that extra garbage that stops people from getting assistance.”

Alarming Suicide Rates

The stats are not pretty for young people. I am so thankful you have survived and you’re here to talk about it but most people don’t. For parents, it’s really important for parents to understand that young adults are going through a lot. Suicide, let’s face it, is not a word people like talking about but it’s the second leading cause of death in young people. To give everybody a sense, a couple of years ago, it was number twelve, so it has grown and progressed. Those are reported. It’s probably a little bit underreported that way, but that is something that has an impact on a family that is hard to put words to.

It’s important for parents that are tuning in to understand that kids are going through a ton and there are a lot of obstacles that are in place for kids to not get help. I’m amazed percentage-wise across the country at how few kids do get help. That’s rising and I’m very grateful for that and for people like yourself to open those doors and use the perfect word, which is to give permission to get help. Let’s face it. We all need it from time to time.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Emma Benoit | Suicide Rates

 

With the rise in the suicide rates amongst young people, I’m noticing that whenever I share my story and they get to interact back with me, they are eager to talk about these things. They are wanting, ready, and willing to talk about these things. It’s giving them that permission to go there and work on things. There’s a quote. It goes, “Pain is passed down until someone is ready to feel it and heal it.”

Pain is passed on until someone is ready to feel and heal it. Share on X

I feel as though the reason why we’re seeing such an increase in suicide rates and suicidality especially amongst our younger generations is because we’ve evolved as a people group. We are learning from our parents and from their parents the things that they were taught and things that were passed down that are harmful, unhealthy, and dysfunctional.

There are several different factors as to why the suicide rates are so high. You have social media, access to the internet, and the digital era that we all live in. It’s the fact that these children and people in my generation, Gen Z, didn’t have a play-based childhood. We have a digital-based childhood. There’s so much out there that suggests reasons, clear indicators, causations, and things like that. I believe that the reason why we’re seeing such a large gathering or so much noise around this conversation is because the young people who are struggling, whenever they’re given that permission, it’s like they’ve been waiting for it. Does that make any sense?

Keeping Everything In

It makes total sense. I’ve experienced that as well when I’ve been doing presentations. I start talking about that and all of a sudden, hands go up. People are talking about some really private things because they haven’t had an opportunity to talk about them. I believe that a lot of young people walk around with these masks on and pretend. You referenced that a little bit. Parents tend to point fingers at things like social media. We’ll talk about the dangers of them, which I believe there are quite a few of them. They’re complicated in terms of how they affect kids. I wanted to ask you. In high school when you grew up in the midst of all of that or at the peak of some of that, tell me a little bit about what that was like for you in terms of that phase where you were keeping it all in.

I agree in the sense that parents want to find a solution. They want to find a reason or something to blame, so to speak. I relate to that. That was a part of my experience, especially whenever it came to my parents looking for reasons why my behavior was presenting in a different way or reasons why I became isolative and did not come out of my room. They did point fingers at, “It’s social media. It’s hormones. It’s puberty,” and all of these things.

Ultimately, I feel like the biggest thing that is not talked about enough is relationships in your home environment. A big reason why I felt so much fear and shame around my struggles and my emotional well-being was from the pressures that I was feeling from the external and then also that I was placing on myself internally. It’s so much easier and so much more accessible for people to cast judgment and for them to be critical of you, your choices, what you wear, how you speak, and what you choose to do. I feel like that’s a big reason why younger generations feel the need to create this pristine picture-perfect image and maintain that image. That way, Mom and Dad don’t automatically look to blame something and also, we’re protected from being put in a box of, “It’s social media. It’s teenage hormones.”

Teenagers don’t want to be put in boxes. They want autonomy. They want to feel like they’re valued and respected as humans. They want to feel like you hear them and see them. Unfortunately, a big problem is that disconnect where when a teenager is going through something stressful or maybe they’re dealing with a big feeling of fear that Mom and Dad always want to blame and then fix. That’s what I’m seeing as a reoccurring issue amongst the youth.

You said so much there and I’m going to pick on one word. That word is hear because I feel like a lot of families don’t do a great job of that. I like what you said. They see a problem and they want to fix it. A lot of times, I find myself saying to parents in session, “Slow down and listen because you’re going to hear certain things that you’re not hearing when you’re at warp speed and you’re trying to fix running down the hallway. Sometimes, what they need you to do, teenagers that is, is to not fix and to be a sounding board. They’re like, “My day was terrible. This kid said this, this teacher did this, and this thing happened.” Download and be like, “Tell us. It’s okay.”

Creating Shell Against Pressures

What a lot of adults, and I’ll speak for the adults in this zone, forget is that teenagers are still learning. They’re still learning about relationships. They’re still learning how to make friends and how to keep them. They’re still learning when to share and when not to share. I’m curious about your thoughts on this. I’ve seen kids that are getting complimented for being brilliant, beautiful, athletic, this or that and I almost can observe them creating more of a shell. They’re like, “You expect me to be brilliant. What happens when I don’t succeed?” I’m wondering about your thoughts on the topic of that type of pressure. Is it necessarily intended as pressure?

It’s a tricky line to teeter with because on one hand you want to validate, encourage, and empower a young person but it’s a fine line. What you’re not remembering and realizing is a lot of times, teenagers take the words of adults as fact and they feel like, “Now that they say this about me, that’s an expectation that I have to uphold.” You get into the space where they don’t necessarily always resonate with the compliment that you’re giving to them but they feel as though because you gave it to them, they own it and it’s their responsibility to maintain it.

I often tell people and encourage parents especially, “Get creative with how you’re reassuring and filling your kids’ cup. Compliment them. Assure them about things that no one can take away from them, what kind of person they are, and what makes them special and unique. Build up that sense of self around those things and not what they can do but who they are.”

For example, I’m thinking, “I’m so proud of you for showing integrity.” Encourage them when they’re being a good person and being kind.

Even encourage them to be comfortable being vulnerable with you and having that close relationship. Even encouraging them whenever they are having a meltdown, crying, and expressing all of the emotions that they’re feeling like, “I am so proud of you for being vulnerable. I am so encouraged and inspired by your vulnerability. This is a good thing. It feels good to cry.” You are reminding them, “I don’t expect you to be perfect all the time.”

I really try to emphasize to parents, “Your goal should not be to make your child’s path smooth and happy all the time. That’s unrealistic. Your goal should be to be able to have your kiddo feel everything and still be okay and also know that you are a safe space. They have to feel everything, still be okay, and know that you’re the safe space that they can come to.”

Parents should not aim to make their child’s path smooth and happy all the time. It is unrealistic. They should let children feel everything and know that they are in a safe space. Share on X

That has got to be written somewhere. I’ll say as a parent that a lot of parents fall into that trap of feeling like it is their job to remove obstacles and they’re going to ensure happiness. Much of what you’re saying resonates. As a therapist in session, when a young adult has allowed themselves a level of vulnerability and shared with me either a very private story, cried openly, or whatever it might be and I say to them, “Thank you for sharing,” they look back at me and think, “No one has ever said that to me.” I can’t tell you how many moments I’ve had like that. It’s a little shocking. I’m like, “Nobody has ever said that?”

I always get the same question whenever I present my story and host Q&As. I always get that one question, “What do you say when you don’t know what to say? When someone is spilling all of the hurt that they are feeling or they’re venting about a  hard day, what do you say?” I always say, “Thank you so much for sharing.”

The first time I heard that from my therapist, it was revolutionary. It was groundbreaking. It feels so good to feel so safe with someone that you could be expressing what society deems as negative, bad emotions and you’re still worthy, valued, and loved and that it’s okay not to be okay. That is the essence of that quote. Saying to someone, “Thank you for sharing that,” takes care of everything.

It’s huge. From a young person’s perspective, young people are around mental health all the time. I try to get parents to understand that we are, too, as adults but some of us don’t know it. Young people are talking about it, which is awesome. It’s fantastic but it can also be overwhelming. When I say to a parent, “As your child’s going off to college, you should  think about how they will respond if they have a friend who’s going through it.” I’ve had many parents over the years saying to me, “That won’t happen.” I’m like, “Statistically, it probably will.”

Bridging The Generational Gap

It’s a world that young adults live in that parents don’t necessarily want to understand. Once they start to understand, it makes a lot of sense that kids are dealing with a lot. They’re dealing with a ton. Even the basic concept of, “I’m okay but my really good friend isn’t, and that’s bothering me a lot.” I’m going back to that point you made about that question people ask you a lot of, “What do you say?” It’s important that young people understand the concept that it’s okay to not be okay. I take it a step further and say it’s pretty normal.

That’s one of the things that I’m hoping that the parent generation or the older generations can really recognize. Maybe the way that you were taught to deal with big feelings, stressors, frustrations, or fears wasn’t healthy. Maybe that was dysfunctional and you’ve been living in a state of fight or flight and the nervous system is all out of whack. You’re living in dysfunction. You’re not living. You’re reacting. I really hope that we can get to a place where the adults want to engage in this world that our youth are quite frankly in. They are in it.

A crucial change and shift that we need to see in order to make the suicide rates go down is engaging the older generation or the parent generation and encouraging them, “This is not something that you will ever escape. In fact, this is something that you’ve never dealt with so it’s understandable that you don’t want to and that it’s scary, but that makes it all the more evident that it’s necessary.” I see it all the time whenever I’m meeting with parents. I’m giving them advice and encouraging them that whenever they get some therapy or they learn ways to respond to their teen, it’s freeing. It’s so freeing to be able to learn the tools and the skills to be able to help your kid who is still learning and still experiencing things for the first time.

Truly, I hope that we can get to a place where parents shift that thinking and remember what it was like when they were teenagers. That breakup is the end of the world for her right now. You can’t toxic positivity it away and say, “That boy doesn’t matter. You’ll be over it in about a week.” We have to shift our way of supporting one another, and that’s generational. The way that you guys as parents encouraged you or discouraged you from opening up is generational so it carries on.

I love how you said that. There’s so much truth to that. I hear the phrase sometimes from families, “We don’t do that in our family. We don’t talk like that.” Whenever I hear that, I always think, “Their kids must be frozen.” The reality is it doesn’t matter if you’re male or female, what culture you’re from, or what area of the world you’re from. We’re all human beings. We all have feelings and we’re all going to feel all of them from time to time. The concept of giving permission to be able to talk about and discuss makes a person feel freer to be a human being and have those ups and downs, have good days and bad days, and not have to be this straight line, perfect robot of a person.

I second that. We’ve been talking about creating a different perspective or a different image in your mind of the true importance of mental health and mental health care and becoming equipped with the resources, skills, tools, and support so that way, you can maintain your mental wellness. That way, you’re not a ticking time bomb waiting for the next crisis to strike.

Unfortunately and tragically, that is how and why we’re losing so many young people to suicide. They’re ticking time bombs waiting for that moment of crisis, that breakup, that fight with Coach, that fight with Mom, that failed test, or that missed opportunity. They’re waiting for that crisis. When a crisis strikes, that is when horrible things happen. Unfortunately, teenagers are impulsive. My attempt was the result of a ticking time bomb and then a moment of crisis and I impulsively acted on it.

Many young people commit suicide because they are like ticking time bombs. They are just waiting for that one moment of crisis. Share on X

When we look at the evidence that we have at hand, it always goes back to the family and the relationships that you have with your loved ones, especially the parent-child relationship or that relationship that you are maintaining. I always say we need to get to a way of thinking and existing that is based around connection over correction. They need rules, boundaries, and structures because they’re minors but we can’t have a healthy dynamic without healthy connections.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Emma Benoit | Suicide Rates

 

Connection is huge. In some ways, it’s everything. I know full well as a parent and as a therapist that it’s a hard question to ask your child, “Are you okay? Are you feeling safe? Have you had thoughts of hurting yourself?” That is not easy to ask your child but I always tell parents, “It’s a heck of a lot easier to ask that than to go to their funeral. It’s not even close.”

Recovering From A Suicide Attempt

Let me ask this and shift for a minute because my audience might be thinking about this. I want to give you a chance to shed some light on this. You mentioned that your attempt happened in 2016. You’re 24 years old. I wonder if there is a way to capture a little bit of your recovery both physically and mentally since your attempt.

I attempted suicide with a firearm. I was left with a spinal cord injury that left me paralyzed from the neck down. Not only did I have to navigate the mental and emotional recovery but I also had a pretty rigorous physical recovery as well. I had to pretty much relearn how to do everything for myself again and that was extremely challenging. When you lose connection from your brain to your body, it is the scariest thing. I wouldn’t wish that upon anyone. It’s frightening to be trapped within your own body.

I feel as though the physical journey that I had to go on taught me so many valuable lessons. It taught me, first and foremost, how to be truly grateful and practice gratitude. It taught me humility, recognizing where I was placing my worth, and restructuring that sense of self. It taught me patience and getting rid of that desire to control everything. I had no control, so it taught me a great deal of patience. Ultimately, having to endure such an intense, rigorous physical recovery equipped me with emotional resilience in a way to be able to come out with an even better and brand-new version of myself.

I recovered physically for about two and a half years. Typically with a neurological injury or a spinal cord injury, they only give you about two years to make your recovery. Science things. Nerves, regenerating, and things like that. I made a very stellar recovery in those two years. I was able to regain feeling and movement back into my whole body. I was once paralyzed. Now, I can use every muscle in my body and I’ve recovered to be able to walk short distances and live independently.

I use a wheelchair mostly day-to-day to get places efficiently and quickly but overall, I have adapted and overcome far more than what the medical team could have ever predicted. Going on that physical journey equipped me with emotional and mental stamina and stability. Having gone through all of that renewed my perspective entirely.

That’s amazing. First of all, thank you so much for sharing. That’s a lot to talk about. It’s a lot to go through. It’s a very personal piece to your world so I appreciate you telling my audience about it. Every time I’ve listened to you talk, I feel like you are a pioneer. You are a person who is leading the charge. You’re leading the charge for young people to give them an understanding of, “You can get through this thing called life. Things that you’re going through may seem really awful at the time.” You used the word grateful before. It’s like, “We need to be grateful for every moment we have here on earth and every opportunity that we’re given. It doesn’t mean life is always easy but we need to be grateful for that and keep pushing because there’s lots of good stuff to come.” I appreciate you sharing that.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to. It’s really amazing to get to share my lived experience with people and see the impact that it has on them. When I get to do this live and in person for audiences, it truly is very healing. It’s therapeutic for me because I could have never predicted that this would become my life and my reality. I’m so fortunate for opportunities like these to hopefully encourage other young people to be a voice and be an advocate because it’s going to take all of us. If we want to see a change within our generation, we’re going to have to be the ones to lead the charge. I hope to be able to empower young people to do more of it.

If we want to see a change within our generation, we must be the ones to lead the charge. Share on X

Guest Nomination And Closing Words

You already have and I know you’ll continue to, so thank you so much for that. Let me close by asking. We have a template of wanting the conversation to continue for all of those reasons and keep the conversation moving forward. What I usually ask of my guests is if they have a friend, a coworker, or a relative, someone who they’d like to nominate for me to have on the show going forward. I would love to get your thoughts on that. Does anyone come to mind?

Yes. There are a couple of people. The first one that I would encourage you all to have on your show next is Dr. Greg Hudnall. He is the Founder and CEO of a program called Hope Squad. Hope Squad is a peer-to-peer based program that exists in schools. It equips not only the students but the teachers as well with training similar to QPR, which I’m not sure your audience is familiar with. It’s a suicide mental health prevention training. QPR stands for Question, Persuade, Refer. The students are empowered to use their voice and empathy to be peer support on campus.

It’s an incredible, phenomenal program, one that I have had the great privilege of getting to share and promote across the country. Since the inception of sharing my story, I’ve been able to inspire over 30 Hope Squads to start across the country throughout all the different states that I’ve gotten to see. It’s an incredible program. He would be a phenomenal guest for your audience. He has a lot of great insight. His perspective is certainly incredible. I would say Dr. Greg Hudnall.

I’ll get his info from you offline. We’ll have Dr. Greg on. I’d love to talk to him about his perspectives. Certainly, his program sounds amazing. It sounds phenomenal. Thank you. I appreciate you bringing him up. I wanted to thank you. Your thoughts on this topic are truly amazing. I was thinking earlier, “My audience might be reading this and they have so many questions for Emma.” They might want to thank you as well.

For them, I want to tell you thank you for making the time. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for doing what you do because there are probably people you’re touching you don’t even realize. A lot of young people will tune in to things like this in private and they’ll say to themselves, “I’m like that. Maybe I need to make some changes.” Maybe some parents are reading and they might think the same thing. That’s my big hope of having someone like you on the show. I want to thank you for making the space, coming on, and sharing with our audience.

Thank you so much for the opportunity. It’s such an honor to get the chance to share. I’m hopeful too. We share the same hope with the outcome of getting together to share and have a genuine conversation. I’m very inspired by all that you do. I’m hopeful as well that we’ll be able to help people that we won’t even know about.

Thanks again. You have yourself a wonderful rest of the evening. We’ll talk soon.

That sounds good. Bye.

Take care.

 

Important Links

 

About Emma Benoit

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Emma Benoit | Suicide RatesEmma Benoit became extremely passionate about suicide prevention after surviving a suicide attempt in 2017, the summer before her senior year of high school. At the time, she was a popular varsity cheerleader with a supportive family and lots of friends, but quietly struggled with anxiety and depression, too ashamed to share her pain with family or friends. Her attempt resulted in a spinal cord injury that left her paralyzed but helped her find faith and purpose and propelled her on a mission to use her painful experience and miraculous recovery to help others.

A few months after her attempt, Emma started the website liferejuvenated.org, a blog to share her story and recovery journey in an effort to help other teens who are struggling. In early 2018, Emma began working on a documentary film called My Ascension, released for limited audiences in 2021. My Ascension chronicles her recovery journey and advocacy work while addressing the youth suicide epidemic.

Emma serves as an Ambassador for Living Works, the world’s leader in suicide prevention training and has been featured on numerous news programs, radio shows and podcasts. In December of 2020, Emma was a featured guest on the “Red Table Talk” talk show, and in 2022, Emma made appearances as a guest on “Ask Dr. Drew” and “The Dr. Phil Show”.

Emma is an uplifting speaker who has shared her powerful story and message with thousands of people at in-person and virtual conferences and events including but not limited to: Living Works and California Department of Education Youth Summit, National Federation of Families for Children’s Mental Health Conference, LSU School of Social Work Conference, Arkansas Youth Mental Health Conference, Hope Rising Suicide Prevention Summit, Wyoming Office of Attorney General and Victim Services Joint Symposium, The Nebraska School for Mental Health Conference, David Lawrence Centers for Behavioral Health, and the Hope Squad National Conference. Emma is a 2018 graduate of Dutchtown High School, whose strength and motivation are
rooted in her strong faith and supportive family.

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Sue Lemke | Societal Pressures

 

In today’s fast-paced world, young people often find themselves bombarded with a huge ton of societal pressures. When these become too much to handle, their mental health gets overwhelmed and pushed to the limit. Marc Lehman discusses how to address this alarming problem with educator Sue Lemke. Together, they explain how to help the youth get rid of the fear of missing out and reduce their obsession with their cellular phones – two of the leading causes of mental health issues. Sue also explores how the COVID-19 pandemic vastly changed the social skills of students today, which has led to higher risks of anxiety and depression.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Dealing With Societal Pressures With Sue Lemke

Introduction

Welcome everybody. We have on the show a super special guest, the show that openly talks about mental health and wellness and various topics that surround it. We are welcoming Sue Homrok Lemke. She’s an assistant superintendent of teaching and learning in Simsbury. She’s also a lecturer and adjunct professor of educational leadership at Central Connecticut State University working with aspiring administrators.

She began her career in special ed, becoming an adept practitioner in public schools while also developing models for alternative education. As a school administrator, she held various roles at both the building and district levels, including human resources and pupil services. Sue is passionate about ensuring all students succeed in their learning while experiencing connection and a sense of belonging. She resides in Connecticut with her spouse, Eric, and her two daughters, Maleita and Maeve. Sue, welcome.

Thank you. It’s great to be with you.

In addition to all that, she’s just a wonderful person who has helped many students including my own daughter over the years. I’m super excited to have you on the show and to tap into your wealth of knowledge, Sue. From really a variety of areas, I think that as an administrator nowadays, you’ve seen a lot, you’ve been around a lot, and I’m sure thousands of IUPs and PPT meetings, and seeing things from different angles. Part of what I really hope to talk to you about is just the trends of what we’re seeing academically with young people nowadays. We’ll get into it. I’m super pleased to have you here. Welcome.

Thanks for having me.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Sue Lemke | Societal Pressures

 

Working In Education

Of course, absolutely. Let’s start off. Sue, in education, you’ve been in the classroom and you’ve been out of the classroom. Can you give us a sense as to just give us capture your career a little bit in terms of where it once was and where it is now?

In my teaching capacity, I was a special education teacher. Although I had experiences at the elementary level, I found most of my teaching career at the secondary level, at both middle school and high school. When you have a background in comprehensive special ed, you have dabbling in many kinds of different topics and disabilities and how they play out in the classroom environment. I found myself honing in and specializing with students with emotional difficulties. They were just my jam.

Usually, there’s no one characteristic or a set of characteristics because they’re all individualized and unique. I found students at that point in my career, and this was 25 years ago, where students had incredible intelligence or often not in what we would call mainstream classrooms at that point in time because of their behavior, because of their manifestation of what was going on internally with them. Their difficulty with expressing themselves in a way that was socially acceptable in a public school setting. I found myself really getting excited and passionate about that population.

They are extremely funny and kept me on my toes. I believe with certain teaching into a certain skillset, they could absolutely be successful in a general education environment. There were some cases that just wasn’t appropriate at that point. I became very invested in alternative education. For students who weren’t demonstrating success in general education, a typical hour of the day public school environment. How do we think of school differently? How do we build knowledge and skills in our kids in a different way that was out of what traditional school looked like?

I was able to co-facilitate an alternative education program where the actual schooling happened late afternoon and early evening with supported work experiences during the day for students. Enabled them a smaller environment with very specific teach into certain skills in a way that they could be successful. That really became more of my specialty in that secondary environment. I had an incredible principal at the time. She said, “You really should be thinking about how to share your influence on an administrative level.”

Interesting or not, I was always pretty good at school. I could figure out the code and the games and what I should do and shouldn’t do and when I should do that and when I shouldn’t do that. I went back to school and received my administrative certification and left the district where I was at Northwestern Connecticut, and moved into a building-level administrative role. I was there for a couple of years and now have been in the same district for almost twenty years now. It’s exciting work for me.

What I love about education is that it’s never boring. It’s always a set of new challenges and problems to solve, but I think the most important part is that we do that in partnership. We do that in partnership, certainly with other educators, certainly with the students that we’re working with. Their parents, their families, outside practitioners like you Mark, and community members. It truly takes all of us pulling together in the same direction with good communication and understanding because we all want the same thing. No matter what seat we have, that’s what we want for our child. If we’re looking at it through a parent aspect, it’s our student as an educator, it’s a citizen. If it’s a community partner, we want them to be successful.

We have put cell phones in kids’ hands, which are far more complex than their brain development. Share on X

I think that’s amazing. I can honestly say, I was just thinking about other people I’ve interviewed for the show. You’re unique in this way Sue and I’ve worked directly with you and I’ve seen your impact. One of the things that you just do so naturally and so organically is you get students to believe in themselves.

Societal Pressures

I think that so often we see young people that have been beaten down by the system and made to feel a certain way. When you treat somebody equally like they’re a human being and they’ve got some amazing talents, we all have talents and it’s just a matter of drawing them out, right? You’re so good at that. You really are really excellent at that. I’ve watched you do it. I know many kids over the years have benefited. I’m curious, just because you’re around kids all the time, and you probably have this happen.

I sometimes find myself using their lingo and I’m like, “What’s going on?” I’m like, “I’m around kids all the time too, that’s why.” We’ve seen these trends. We’ve seen these trends with things like depression and things like anxiety, where certainly on the high school level and definitely on the college level, they’re trending in the wrong directions. We’re seeing suicide rates go up. We’re seeing anxieties go up and lots and lots of kids are depressed. I guess I’m curious when you think about your opinion as to maybe why this has happened over the last, let’s say, 5 to 10 years, roughly, what comes to mind?

I think first and foremost, it’s the societal pressures that kids are facing. Certainly, when I speak with people from our generation and previously, it’s okay, we’ve always had pressures. They’ll make an argument that in many cases, things are easier for kids. I’m not so sure. I think that technology, I think that it’s a blessing and a curse at times. I think that we have tools that we put in kids’ hands, meaning their cell phones which are far more complex than the brain development of those holding those phones.

Students did not have access to the world because of the internet. Instead, the world now has access to them 24/7. Share on X

I think that that adds pressure that when we were growing up, and even at my beginning years as an educator, students didn’t have access to the world, and the expectation the world would have access to them almost in a 24/7 format. I got to go home and shut down and focus and work on the task at hand without a notification beeping on my phone or without worrying about what this group of friends was doing and where they were, “I wasn’t there and I was missing out.”

Kids talk about this fear of missing out. It’s very real. We had the ability to be able to say, “No, that’s over there.” It’s really compartmentalized. I don’t know if kids have that level of flexibility and quite honestly, that piece that we did. That worry manifests and I believe increased anxiety and increased depression. I have seen that as an increase and certainly have a couple of other ideas there as well. Anxiety and fear are often coupled together and we get to this point sometimes where we’re worrying so much about things that we cannot control, that it starts taking over and it starts being intrusive in our day-to-day functioning. That I see is hugely different than I did when I started my career.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Sue Lemke | Societal Pressures

 

I totally agree. It’s funny, I’m smiling, because sometimes I’ll say to kids like if Sue were my friend in middle school and I wanted to get ahold of her, I’d use my rotary phone and I’d call her and I’d probably talk to her mom and Sue was busy. I’d leave a message and maybe Sue would get back to me the next day. When I tell kids nowadays this, they’re looking at me like I’m crazy. There was a piece that came with that we just expected. I’m not going to get in touch with Sue right away. By the way, if Sue’s busy, she’ll call me when she gets a chance.

Maybe when she gets a chance is like next week, like it’s not right away. You compare that to what kids have now. When kids shoot each other a text, if it’s been longer than 10 or 20 seconds, there are these assumptions that get made. As you said, I think there is a driver to stress and anxiety with regards to that. I see it all the time. We haven’t even touched on social media. We’ll get to that in a minute, but I think for kids there’s that constant pressure, the pressure of I’ve got to communicate. I’ve got to socialize. I’ve got to connect. I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to do that. They lose track of like, “No, you’re supposed to be doing your work or no, you’re supposed to be relaxing. No, you’re supposed to be having dinner with your family.”

I don’t have to be on all of the time. I think that there’s a perception that if I’m not hooked into my phone or that again, something is going on without me, or there’s a better experience that’s happening that I’m missing out on instead of prioritizing what’s right in front of me, which might be a meal or my family or rest or just a break.

Young people are hooked to their phones because of the fear of missing out of whatever is happening. They do not prioritize what is happening in front of them anymore. Share on X

School Policies On Phones

That brings me to the next topic then. I want to ask your thoughts on this because we’re seeing these trends happening. I don’t know if they’re quite happening and seem very yet, but these trends of schools considering banning phones during the day and like these different ways they do it and different breaks they get. I know certain teachers will have the kids put their phones in cubbies and stuff like that. I guess I’m curious your thoughts on doing that and how you see that happening maybe even in Simsbury.

I think both at the middle school and high school this year, there’s been a reboot relative to cell phones and the policy. I have two girls, as Mark mentioned, as you mentioned, they’re 13 and 11, and they’re both at our middle school in Simsbury. They both have cell phones. That was the rule that they weren’t going to get them until they went to middle school. Certainly, we have very specific parameters at home about that.

They’re very well aware they don’t own the phone, Dad and I do. Therefore it’s subject to different filters and I can take that at any time and I can do spot checks and I will do spot checks and all of those things. When the recommitment to the cell phone policy, and I’ll just speak at the middle school for a second came out, which means as soon as you walk into that building, it’s in your locker locked in a way.

These very specific actions, not in a punitive way at first, but it’s this very stepped-out process of just what will happen if you choose to do that and have been very impressed with our administration for setting the context of the why, giving some data and information about yes. Cell phones can be valuable tools within certain contexts, but they can also be incredible distractors to the learning process.

Cell phones can be valuable tools within certain context, but they can also be incredible distractors to the learning process of students. Share on X

What that data has looked like in research and how that’s playing out in the middle school. We were asked as parents to all go over this recommitment to the cell phone policy. We were asked as parents to sign saying that we understood as well as our kids and they had to sign too saying we understand and it’s for good reason and I have to say it’s going exceedingly well.

That’s fantastic.

Similar things at the high school they have to be off and away. There are conversations legislatively around putting some practices and mandated policies into play here. We want to make sure that we’re always responding in a way that’s appropriate for our community and in our schools, but that’s informed decision-making. It is hopefully in collaboration with our families as partners and setting up the imperative way that we don’t want to cause a further distraction to the learning environment.

We want to teach kids how to be present. We want to reinforce how we talk with each other and have dialogue without the distraction again, of worrying about what we’re missing out on. The only thing that we should be focused on here and now is this interaction with each other or this new content that I’m learning about and how to make that engaging.

I love it. I have to say too, I think beyond the academics, the other thing that I noticed with it, I’m on a private school campuses this year consulting and they’ve got very similar policies that no phones are allowed out, especially outside of the classroom on campus, is that kids are walking with their heads up and they’re looking at each other. I know that sounds so simple and so basic, but when I as a counselor sit with a 17 or 18-year-old kid going to college, and I’ve got a role play on how to dialogue and how to have a conversation, how to look people in the face.

The reason that’s happening is because kids have their head down all the time. I think an offshoot real positive that could come out of this is that kids start to socialize a little bit better. Kids start to look at each other in the face and have dialogue and say, “What’s up? What’s going on?” Instead of like giving you the grunt. They’re actually having conversations with each other, they’re having conversations with adults, which I think is so important to their overall wellness and well-being. It’s one of those things that you have to have.

Impact Of The Pandemic

Certainly, and I think there was another challenge in the educational world during COVID. We went to a platform that was predicated on technology and clicking in and being on a device to ensure that connection. That served an appropriate purpose at the appropriate time. Now we have to reteach some of that human interaction. You and I are on Zoom right now and making this dialogue happen, but how do you do that?

How do you do that in both? What does good interaction, and human interaction look like? How do I read cues? How do I read when something I’ve said has struck a chord positively or not so positively? How do I get that feedback and adjust one way or the other as a person? These are skills that sometimes we’ve assumed in the past. I always say it’s okay. You just haven’t been taught yet or that teaching hasn’t stuck yet. It’s our job to do that as educators.

I don’t mean to open a can of worms when I say this, but it’s like AI. Like there’s positive benefits to it. When it first came out, we branded it as evil, because kids were using it for not-so-good purposes, but it’s become one of those tools that isn’t going away and that can benefit kids in certain regards. I think that virtual is very similar. I was on a few weeks ago with a gentleman from a small island in Greece.

It was an amazing interview. I had so much fun. There’s no way I would have been able to interview this guy unless we had a brochure. I feel like there are benefits that we get and we just have to look at those human interaction things that you were talking about in terms of looking people in the face, in terms of reading body cues, in terms of having a conversation, you need to be able to do that in person. You need to be able to do that routinely because whether it’s friends, whether it’s staff members in school, whether it’s teachers, parents, girlfriends’ parents, or professors in college, it doesn’t matter.

Self-Care For Young Adults

You’re going to be around people forever. You need those skills. I’m thrilled to hear that I’m a big fan of managing cell phone use during the day. I think it’s good for kids. I think it gives them a break. It’ll be really interesting if there are some studies done over the next couple of years as to how that impacts things. We’ll see. I wanted to shift and just ask you about another topic that I think comes up a lot, self-care. Self-care is a phrase that’s thrown around a lot. I have my own definition, but I guess I’m wondering when you think about self-care for a young adult, what does it mean to you?

For me, it means how do I develop tools and systems and boundaries and structures so that when life gets hard because life will get hard. I’m ensuring that I’m taking care of some of my basic needs like sleep and eating and exercise. As well as some more developed skills and coping mechanisms to get through hard and to do hard differently or to do hard better, and to not always worry about stopping when something gets difficult because you’re not going to be able to do that realistically.

When that shows up, when that fear shows up or the heart shows up, I have skills to be able to navigate. That self-care, sometimes practicing those skills, sometimes making sure that I am living out those boundaries for myself and with others and actively practicing them and doing things that are fun and trying to give very specific time and space for balance.

I love that and I love what you said and I think it’s funny. I think back to when I was a teenager you had this thought process of life’s always going to be good. I like how you said that. You have life is a rollercoaster. You have your ups you have your downs. There are health things that pop up, there are financial things that pop up, and there are emotional things that pop up. I think self-care to me is one of those things that we can touch, we can actually tangibly choose to do.

That means if it’s midnight and you come across a great movie, do you sit there and watch it and you’re exhausted the next day or do you just go to sleep? I think we’ve all been there. We’ve all been in that spot. For me, it’s more usually the New York Yankee games. You got to figure out what’s best and what your body needs. I think that eating is the same way. I cannot begin to tell you how many young people I come across that’ll come to my office at 5:00 at night and they haven’t had a meal yet. They’re having their first meal at night. They haven’t had breakfast.

They skip school lunch because they don’t like it. It’s like, “Your body needs nutrients.” Sort of deciding for a young person, deciding and saying, “There are certain things in life we cannot change.” We can choose to get good rest. We can choose to eat decently and you don’t have to eat perfectly all the time, but I think as long as you’re getting your nutrients in, your brain needs that to be able to take it in. You and I think have a very similar view of exercise and just physical fitness. I think just for so many kids who come into my office who are inundated with stressors, inundated with anxieties, taking a walk in your neighborhood even can be so beneficial just to clear your head.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Sue Lemke | Societal Pressures

 

100%.

There are certain things that I think young adults and us older adults do, I should say, “Me.” You’re not older, right?

I am. It’s okay, I know you’re being gracious, but I am. I’m right there with you.

I think we’re just built the same and we need to relieve that stress. I think when someone puts their shoes on, puts their earbuds in, they go for that walk, they can tangibly touch that relief valve and just give themselves some of that opportunity to be a happier individual. I love how you said that. I think self-care is such an important topic for young people. Can I go back to COVID for a minute? You mentioned COVID.

Pre-COVID Vs. Post-COVID

COVID is such a big topic. I think obviously it impacted so many families in so many different ways. I’m thankful we’re now talking more openly about health and wellness. I feel like everywhere I look, there’s been a conversation about it. When you think about the students you have contact with regularly pre-COVID and the students you have contact with now post-COVID, what would you say is one of the bigger changes you’ve noticed?

That’s a really good question. I’m noticing more I think I’m noticing more pre, different during, and getting back to some of those pre’s again, a return to that. I’m seeing a skillset of students being able to have a better baseline, again, of how to have these social interactions that don’t seem so isolationist, quite honestly. I can enter into a collaborative situation and have some foundational skills. We’re seeing some of that as a gap. When I talk about education, sometimes I talk about the concept of windows and that there are developmental windows that we take advantage of and teach into as the brain literally is formulating.

We missed out on some of those windows in some places and spaces with COVID. Just the interaction component, the human interaction component during, it was prolonged for some people. Not in all cases, but students, for example, pre-COVID with issues around social anxiety. That’s hard being around people and negotiating these different environments really hard. During COVID, some of those students with that presentation, they were living their best selves, and they were feeling successful because I didn’t have to worry about the nuances of these different environments that I was stepping into as a teenager, as a school-aged kiddo.

Many students lived their best selves during the pandemic because they did not have to worry about the nuances of dealing with different environments. Share on X

This jam of being on a screen and dialing in and being isolated in many ways works very well for my disability because that’s easier for me than having to do this other. I would say that that was a big piece that I was very cognizant of. For these windows that may have shut a little bit, how do we prime back open and teach those skills that kids don’t have yet? I’m a big proponent on that word yet because I think it is a mindset. I think that we can always do better and be better for ourselves and for each other and get smarter about a lot of different things. I think that’s very much a malleable construct in my mind.

I think you’re right. I hadn’t thought of that, but that’s a really good point around social anxiety. I think for some of those kids, I mean, I’ve had a number of kids over the last couple of years say to me, COVID was my brightest moment. Like I loved COVID because it just worked for them and then to have to shift out of that. Some of the kids, as you know, just wouldn’t go back to school. They would school refuse. It does make sense. I mean, it was such a huge shift for so many, not only kids but families in general, for so many different reasons.

A Look At Stats

I’m curious about your thoughts on something. I look up stats from time to time and the stats on college campuses are oftentimes as few as 11% of kids that need help actually get it. The number is way lower than we’d want it to be. With some of the stats out there, as high as 70% to 80% of kids having mental health issues on campuses. When I look at those stats on the high school level, they’re a bit better, but not by much. I guess I’m curious in general, why would you say so many kids out there that need help? Don’t get it.

I think a couple of things. I think first and foremost, there is a fear of looking different. If I express that I need X, then I’m also making an assumption that my friends don’t, that other students don’t, and I look different. As students are trying to figure out who they are, that’s a really scary thought. I keep that in. We’ll take it through the lens of anxiety because we see a lot of anxiety. I have these internalized thoughts, these internalized fears, and instead of sharing them with a trusted adult, I hold on to them.

I actually think that what I’m experiencing is not normal. I don’t want to run the risk of putting myself out there and exposing my unnormal kinds of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. That’s why I think that shows like these are so absolutely imperative and to get out and to normalize these conversations to say, “Listen, fears, worries, completely okay. That actually makes you human. Everybody has fears and worries.” When we have to maybe do something a little bit different, they start having strength that gets in the way of doing things that you love to do.

Whether that be being with your family or friends or playing sports or doing something that you really love doing. We just have to talk about what’s getting in the way. Sometimes kids think, “I have this fear, I have this fear of X.” I have to remove whatever is causing that fear. Let’s take dogs. I try to work around and never see a dog and never be in places where there are dogs instead of saying, “What am I going to do when I run into a dog? How do I develop the tools to pivot around and figure that out?” I do very much believe in some pedagogy of a woman named Lynn Lyons.

She is in what I believe is an expert in anxiety and she talks about anxiety being this insatiable beast and that when you try to remove what’s making you worry or anxious, anxiety will always replace it with something else. I remove the dog and then I’m fearing that something else. Instead of saying, “Anxiety is a really normal part of being a human.” What do you do when it shows up? What tools do you have to pivot around it and keep going?

How do you have a plan B? Sometimes the plan B doesn’t work and that’s okay. Like things will happen. I went a little bit out of a bird walk and I apologize for that, but why don’t students access help? I think that they’re worried about looking weird or strange or that they will be different or their fears or their feelings won’t be validated. They become the other. I’ll just hold onto them. This is just me. It’s not a big deal. I can handle it without having conversations to rely on again, trusted adults or in some cases, even an expert to say, “Let’s talk through this more.”

Students refuse to get help because they are worried about looking weird or fearing their feelings being invalidated. Share on X

I think it’s an excellent point. I remember reading somewhere online where there was a conversation, back-forth conversation around anxiety and someone made the point of when did we decide that instead of tolerating things, we just eliminate them. If I don’t like to fly, then I guess I just don’t go anywhere. If I don’t like dogs, I guess I just don’t go to like ten of my friends houses versus learning how to tolerate it. A lot of times in my office, that’s the emphasis of we need to look at this as a very normal, natural part of life.

If we can learn how to tolerate it, think of the world we just opened up. I’m thinking about social anxiety because it’s so pervasive that so many kids have come out of COVID more socially anxious than ever. Again, some kids are just like, “If I just stay in my bedroom, forever?” Versus like, “Let’s figure out a way around this.” I think you make a great point. I really want my readers to read your point, which was excellent. That is, there’s help out there. There are ways to do this that don’t involve eliminating things in your world.

It doesn’t involve limiting things in your world. What’s interesting about the statistics going up is instead of kids looking at it as I’m weird or I’m different, they’re actually in the majority now. Kids that have anxiety, when you look at stats, many stats show that kids are way above 50%. They’re in that majority grouping now. I try to point that out to kids. It’s like you were referencing junior high before. It’s like being in junior high and going through puberty and pretending like nobody in the building is going through it. Everybody in the building is going through it. I try to say that to kids to say, “You don’t realize it, but in a room of like 25 kids, there are probably eighteen kids that are super anxious about things.”

Episode Wrap-up

Being able to let your guard down and realize that is important because that leads to kids actually getting some help and really being able to successfully master some of the tolerance surrounding you. Sue, you and I could talk all day long. I don’t want to go on and on because you’re such a super busy individual and I appreciate you making the time. I’m going to put you on the spot one more time though. Let me ask you this.

As far as normalizing it forward goes, the way I’ve conceptually set it up is I’ve asked people to nominate a friend, a coworker, or a relative if you have somebody in mind that you think would benefit my audience to be interviewed. I would love to get your thoughts on someone maybe that you’d like to nominate. What do you think?

You can put me on the spot and that’s okay. Quite honestly, the first person that comes to mind and it’s in more of a professional capacity is Justine Ginsberg from the Farmington Valley Health District. She has to this point, there is so much need out there relative to mental health that they’ve focused all of her time and effort on this topic. She really wants to work to partner with students and families and practitioners and community members and educators to do exactly what we’re doing which is to normalize these conversations, get resources in people’s hands and share it’s okay. There are ways, there’s helpers out there and she’s certainly one of them. That’s the person that comes to mind for me, Mark.

That’s awesome. We will get her on the show. She sounds amazing. Again, I appreciate your time, Sue. I can only say if your family’s out there and kids are out there and you’re lucky enough to engage with Sue and to benefit from all that you’ve done with people, you’re a lucky individual. Thank you so much for what you do. I just appreciate you making the time to be with us. Thank you.

I always appreciate you working with us and collaborating for kids. Thanks, Mark.

My pleasure. Have a wonderful evening. Thanks again, Sue.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

 

About Sue Lemke

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Sue Lemke | Societal PressuresSue Homrok-Lemke is the Assistant Superintendent of Teaching & Learning in Simsbury, CT. She is also a lecturer/adjunct of Educational Leadership at Central Connecticut State University, working with aspiring administrators.

Sue began her career in special education, becoming an adept practitioner in public school, while also developing models for alternative education. As school administrator, she held various roles at both the building and district levels, including human resources and pupil services.

Sue is passionate about ensuring all students access rigorous learning, while experiencing connection and a sense of belonging. She resides in Connecticut with her spouse, Eric and their two daughters, Maleita and Maeve.

Normalize It Forward | DJ Nash | Mental Health

 

A Million Little Things is an ABC drama series that explores various mental health topics, primarily suicide, depression, and grief. In this podcast episode, Marc Lehman sits down with the show’s creator, DJ Nash, to talk about this series’ inception and production. Marc shares how losing a real friend to suicide and dealing with anxiety inspired him to create a show centered on mental health issues. DJ Nash also discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic changed young people’s perspective on mental health, the importance of being a good friend to yourself, and how to reach out to those struggling with inner battles.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

A Show About Mental Health With DJ Nash

Introduction

Welcome to the show. The show that talks openly about mental health and wellness. I am so super excited to welcome in DJ Nash. I’m going to intro DJ and then we will chat openly about lots of different things. DJ is an individual after graduating from Brown University headed to Manhattan to begin his career doing stand-up. In 2000 was named Best New Face at the Montreal Just for Laughs Comedy Festival, which led to a deal with CBS where he co-created and starred in a CBS pilot, “Life with David J” along with Elliot Gould.

Nash has been writing and not acting ever since. In 2014 an executive produced the NBC series, “Growing Up Fisher.” The show was based on Nash’s childhood. Growing up with a father who is blind and with parents who got divorced. The show featured the first visually impaired lead actor in a comedy series, as well as the first guide dog. In 2018, DJ produced and wrote an amazing show called “A Million Little Things.” I have to say, by far and away, my favorite show. Love the saying that the show starts off with, “Friendship isn’t a big thing, it’s a million little things.”

If you haven’t watched this show, please make the time. It’s absolutely phenomenal. This show is loosely based on Nash’s real-life experiences. A Million Little Things is an hour-long dramedy which ran for five seasons on ABC and is now available on Hulu. A Million Little Things touched upon some really important topics. Suicide, disability, divorce, the courage to come out in high school, sexual abuse, the weight of the coronavirus, and the tensions that arose from the death of George Floyd. A million little things pushed us to reconsider how we treat each other.

What an amazing topic. Because of A Million Little Things, DJs become very involved with mental health and the mental health community serving as ambassador on PREVENTS alongside the head of every branch of the armed forces on a presidential task force aimed at reducing the suicide rate among veterans. He’s also very active with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention with DiDi Hirsch in L.A. Currently, DJ is developing a series for NBC and one for Hulu. He’s also making a documentary called Joy about a survivor of child sexual assault and her inspiring story of resilience.

 

Normalize It Forward | DJ Nash | Mental Health

 

DJ, welcome.

Thank you so much. Those are all the things I did that seemed to work. I could do the ones where I failed miserably. We could fill the whole hour.

You’ve done a lot as I mentioned to you before we started chatting. Your show is just amazing. Absolutely amazing. I would just say as a therapist, having worked with so many people with mental health issues resonated deeply with me, and every single show I turn to my wife and say this is so well written and so well acted. Just an amazing show, really.

I want to say a couple of things. As a kid who had a severe learning disability, the idea that I could make a career out of writing, I think surprises most of my teachers. The idea that the writing and the execution of the show, the acting spoke to you and resonated with someone who’s had so much success in the mental health field. That’s a really cool bar that I was hoping we could hit. I’ve lost a friend to suicide and nothing will bring him back, but knowing that his story has helped other people means he didn’t die in vain.

I’m not a mental health expert, certainly not now, but I’m more aware of things. There are these silver linings that happen around trauma and the idea that I know you because of that show, that this relationship started a couple of weeks ago and continues today. The other relationships like that I’ve had and Alicia, who said that the show saved her life. There are people who I’ve met and I want that for him and I want that for me.

It’s amazing. I mean, such an amazing story. For those who have been around people who have taken their own lives and been through that experience, it is such a painful ripple effect that just touches so many different people. I work with a lot of college kids and I often think, unfortunately, you’ll hear about a story where this happens on a particular campus. I often think about, “What about all of those other kids on that campus? What about all of those kids that even if they didn’t know that person, they’re a contemporary of that person?”

Just the fact that it’s so permanent and so many kids out there are struggling that I cannot help but wonder when they see. I just rewatched the first show, when they say, “I won’t spoil it for my readers.” When they see Rome in the middle of taking an overdose and then so beautifully written, but so amazing that he didn’t tell anybody. He didn’t tell anybody for a bit/ To hold that, it just makes you think like how many people out there.

We got to be at least able to wreck the pilot, but we’re also not going to have any to talk about, but I do love the fact that your head is blocking it, so it looks like it says Mali’s Ward. I started a stand-up comic, so I’m going to try to put some.

I hear you. It’s all points up here.

The show came from this idea. The only thing I knew about the show at first was wouldn’t it be interesting if one friend is about to take his life when he gets a call from a second friend that a third friend took his life? Just the idea that a suicide prevented a suicide. I thought, “That’s really interesting.” I do nothing about who they were, what they were going through, why they were in this crisis, what was going on.

I just thought, That’s an interesting cold open.” This is the writing side of this. I just spent time trying to figure out like, “Why would someone be suffering?” I really wanted it not to be that people were suffering for financial reasons or at least that wasn’t the most apparent thing. If you watch the show later in the series, you discover that when Rome was going to take his life, it was the same day he got a Super Bowl ad. He was a commercial and this is a huge day in his career. I think part of what he was feeling was like, “If even today, I feel like this, am I ever going to get out of it?”

That process of finding different stories and finding different hurts really allowed me to base characters on different parts of my hurt and really cathartic. The director of the pilot, James Griffiths, who did just a beautiful job, pointed out that he’s like, “You have four characters on the show.” If I go back and look at it  like, “That’s true.” It made it then easy to write because I could hide it. If my pain was hidden in a Korean American woman, you might not suspect it’s me.

Finding different stories and different hurts allows a person to understand all kinds of pain. Share on X

Interesting. I didn’t know that backdrop, so I appreciate it you sharing that. I also say I’ve never seen a show where I’ve uttered the words to my wife at the end of every episode. “How about one more?”

Just to people who are reading, backs out at two a day. It’s a lot. Especially the first season.

Talking About Your Pain

You’re going to start, clear your schedule. It’s an amazing show. I want to just touch on something. The whole reason I created Normalize It Forward is I wanted to have an open dialogue with people about mental and you just said something so fascinating. I think with depression, a lot of people misunderstand what depression is. A lot of people misunderstand what it looks like and what it feels like.

Many people, especially men, let’s face it, we walk around with our masks on all day long and we’re hiding it and we’re hiding how we feel. It’s certainly not, I would say, an open acceptance for men to cry open. I always joke when I ask a male in my office, “When was the last time you cried?” They’re like, “Three years ago.” I ask a female and they’re like, “Maybe 30 minutes ago.”

In the elevator.

The way in here.

“I’m crying right now.”

It’s just that’s the world we live in. I think that as a result, especially for men, it is so hard to deal with those emotions that come up. I think that really for my readers to understand, especially parents of young people, that those emotions may be there and they might be hidden and they might not be talked about. Someone looks at you and says, “DJ, how are you doing?” You’re like, “I’m fine.” It’s a classic answer. “I’m fine. I’m good.”

Rome’s hiding it.

Right.

Just to speak to that, because if you have parents listing, I try to break this habit every second of parenting is to solve and to fix. When you have a teen who is dealing with depression, just knowing that it’s a safe space to say, “I am hurting,” is huge. It doesn’t mean you have to solve the hurt, but just knowing that I can tell you I’m hurting and you’re not going to think less of me as your child. If you provide that as a parent if you go, “I just want you to know it’s okay to not be okay. I just want you to know, maybe others differ with this.”

You don’t want to burden your child, but if you want to say like, “I have hard days too. I have some friends who’ve had really hard days. Tell me about it, what’s going on.” Just to know that I can be your perfect kid that I’m trying to be with my grades and my sports and my theater, whatever it is that I’m doing to know that I don’t get demoted in your mind because I’m hurting. In the same way, I wouldn’t be demoted because I broke my arm. To know that is so big.

That’s huge, DJ. I think what a great tip for parents because I always joke I’m like, “We were given two ears. Listen to your kids. Try to hear what they’re saying when they’re not talking and paying attention and giving them that unconditional I’m here for you, no matter what you throw at me, no matter what you have to say, no matter how you’re feeling, it’s okay. It’s totally okay.”

I’m going to just wreck some episodes because I think the work we’re doing here is more important than plot stuff because even if the story, you’re still going to love it, guys. Here’s what I’ll say. One of my favorite scenes in our entire series, John died by suicide in the pilot. His daughter Sophie is struggling, A, because she lost her dad, and B, because in the series she becomes a survivor of sexual assault. She’s hurting. She finds out that there’s another student who was assaulted, and she wants to meet that student but then she finds out that the student died by suicide.

The fact that the same thing happened to Sophie that happened to this young woman and the fact that this woman died by suicide, the way her dad did, really makes her start to spiral and wonder, “Is this my fate? Is this my destiny in a Star Wars way?” There’s a lot to carry. She goes to Rome, who almost took his life in a pilot, and who everyone is aware of the story. probably because of their dynamics of Rome stepping up as her surrogate dad in a lot of ways. She may not have felt like I could talk to you about your dark days, but she’s really curious. This is the scene.

She knocks on his door and he’s delightfully surprised but surprised to see her there. He’s trying to figure out as we all would, if our teenage kids and friends show up at her house, “What’s going on.” “I need to ask you something.” “Anything, whatever.” She says, “What made you think you wanted to do it?” He suddenly realizes, “We’re talking about this.” As much as Rome might share, he’s also aware I’m an adult sharing too, I’m aware of the power dynamic and I realize you’re not just asking for a book report, there’s something going on.

He has to be careful in how he answers. She explains what’s going on and his closing line. Romany Malco, I love you, dude. You’re probably not reading this because you have your own podcast and stuff, but for someone reading this, the next time you run into Romany, stop them and say, “I heard DJ national podcasts. He’d said he loves you for this.” He had this line that we did and he just delivered it so beautifully and he says to her at the end, and he tells her why it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve been predisposed to some things, but that doesn’t mean and there’s help and there’s support.

We’re so much more aware and we’re talking about it as a friend group in a way that John and we didn’t do that. You’re set up to succeed. He said, “If you’re ever feeling that way, don’t knock on my door.” The audience for a moment, I’m sure you were like, “What did you say?” He goes, you knocked my door down. That is the thing. To anyone who’s struggling and reading, anybody who’s like, I’ve struggled and listen, I don’t know about the listening part, but I’ve struggled and I’ve been in pain.

I’ve been in pain so great that I think I cannot bear this pain. I have helped people who have been in pain that is so great, they cannot bear this pain. You call someone and you tell them what you’re feeling. If you need to call 998, that’s cool. These people have been trained to that. They are honored to be there. If you need to tell a teacher, if you can tell your parent, if you can tell your sibling, if you can tell a friend, just tell someone. The mere process of telling someone will make you feel not alone.

If someone cannot bear the pain they are facing, call them and relate to their pain. Share on X

Just amazing advice.

For a standup comedian for sure. I’m sure Jack gets given out that advice. Jim, are you giving out that advice?

I think that it’s such a strange place for a young person to be when they’re feeling that way. As a therapist, I realize it doesn’t go from today, Tuesday, everything’s great, tomorrow, Wednesday, everything’s s***. It’s a slow decline. There’s a lot of opportunity, as you said, to reach out to someone and to take that leap and to say, “I don’t even know how to say this, but I feel awful and I don’t even know what it is.” It doesn’t have to come off as eloquent. It doesn’t have to even be said. If you want as a young person to text an adult, do it. Doesn’t matter. As you said, DJ, once you take that step to tell somebody now you’re not alone, you’ve also created a safety net for yourself. I think the concern of self-harm does decrease as a result of that.

Before we say, one more thing I want to say. Anytime I talk to a mental health specialist when I’m on a podcast or on a panel, I ask this question. I know how you’re going to answer, even though you haven’t answered, which is asking someone if they’re thinking about hurting themselves, does that make them more inclined to hurt themselves?

No, it doesn’t. I think that whenever I’ve done it, and I’ve done it a lot to assess safety, it is ten times out of ten received well by the person because the message is this person cares. This person cares enough to ask me, “Have you been thinking about hurting yourself? Is this something that you’ve considered? Do you have a plan?” It doesn’t make a person think about it more because quite frankly, they’re already thinking about it a whole bunch.

There are three groups of people. Some people weren’t thinking about it, who you ask, and they’re like, “What? No.” They brush it off because they weren’t thinking about it. Some people were thinking about it and were hoping someone would ask, that’s who you desperately want to get to. Some people are thinking about it and didn’t think it showed. The mere fact that you’ve given them a safe space to feel that way is everything.

Absolutely. I consider myself really lucky. In my office, in my space, I create that environment for young people. Over my 25 years of doing this, obviously, technology has developed as well, but I’ve developed more ability to see people online. There are times when I’ll see a student and they’re in their room at the University of Alaska somewhere and far off and they’re able to share this stuff. I’ve had plenty of kids over the years look at me and say, “I’ve never told anybody this.” That to me is an honor for them to share that. It’s amazing.

With that, there’s a school in my area and they have had four suicides in the last two years. It’s just tragic. I mean, like it guts me. To the other parents that I actually did a podcast, one of my podcasts was How to Talk to Your Kids About This. Are you thinking of like I had Dr. Barbara Van Dahlen, who was my consultant on the show, she talked about it. If you’re in a situation where someone has taken their life and you’re worried about your friend or your child or your partner, whomever, that is the perfect opportunity to talk about it because it’s on the table.

“How are you doing? How does this make you feel? Have you ever thought about that?” Talking about it and is unbelievably helpful. I haven’t been doing this as you have, but I certainly have been surrounded by suicide a lot in the last six years. I’ve never found someone was like, “How dare you talk to me about this?” I’ve only met people who, especially with the pandemic, everyone is dying to connect. If you look at someone and you notice them and they’re seen, people appreciate being seen.

Isn’t that interesting? Of all the people you’ve talked to, not one person has responded poorly. Think about that. That’s, that’s really interesting to me.

I’ve called someone to go like, “Look, maybe it’s because I lost my friend because I’m doing the show, but that last call I’m just a little worried. Are you okay?” I’ve used like you can say, “I heard a podcast and the guy said, I should do like, use me as the excuse, use you as the excuse.” Whatever the thing is that is so much better than the feeling I had when I was supposed to have lunch with my friend the next week and he took his life. I wasn’t aware he was suffering. I would want no one to be in that situation ever.

Providing The Right Support

Glad you said that because DJ, I don’t know how old your kids are, but a lot of parents as they approach pubescent years, they’re nervous to talk about sex and body parts and this and the other thing. I talk about everything because I do it in my office, but suicide is one of those topics that’s so hard for parents to talk about sometimes. I love how you said that. I think it’s so accurate. If a person recognizes, “I’m going to be temporarily anxious about throwing this word out of safety or suicide or depression,” that is nothing compared to losing a significant other, a child, a friend, or anybody else. Not even close.

“I know high school is tough even all these years later, I remember it. If you’re ever feeling down in a way that you need to talk about, know that I’m here to listen.” You can move on. You can. You can do that as you’re dropping off laundry. Like that’s okay, but you set the table for it. I have walked with, I do the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Walk. I’m doing it Saturday. I have walked with a thousand people.

On Saturday, will get together at a park in Pasadena, California, and every single one of them will have been touched by suicide directly. There were different beads and necklaces, and the colors of the necklaces meant I lost a child to suicide, or I lost a parent to suicide. Green means you’ve had an attempt or you yourself are struggling. You meet all these people and you realize you’re not alone. It’s a group you would never want to belong to, but they couldn’t be more welcoming. To parents out there, I don’t want you walking for your kid. If you are walking for your kid, don’t walk alone.

I did the walk last year here in Southern Connecticut and had the exact same response and really powerful. Met some amazing people. All of what you just said, all of those messages are so 100% true for everybody. Parents out there, I mean, really listen, really heed our advice. We’ve been around it. We’ve been through it. DJ lost a close friend. I’m sure this show brought many people and their stories right to your world. I can only say this. One of the things that made me so happy when I started this podcast just a few months ago is I got an email from a mom and she said to me, “I listened to your show in the car with my 15-year-old and it allowed me to talk about hard topics.” I’m like, done. That is the reason I have this bad guess.

An Episode On Suicide

Can I tell you a similar? That story, you affected a certain amount of people and that happened like to use your platform in that way. I lost my friend to suicide. I was just writing my story and then I found that we, me and the other writers were telling all of our stories. I think it’s the middle of season one, Delilah finally gets this blue envelope. Spoiler, if you’re wondering what happens to her, but she gets the blue envelope. John’s suicide note is there. I was very purposeful because of the great advice I got from Dr. B, our consultant, that a person who dies doesn’t get to speak from the dead.

I had to be really careful because you don’t want to send a message that you can kill yourself and still be part of life because you cannot, you’re dead. I knew I had this one note and Ron Livingston who played John was very generous enough to do the note. There’s a whole backstory there, but we don’t have time for it. He spent a lot of time on this note and the episode aired and it coincidentally aired the day I was finished with the season writing. I actually had a lot more time.

I got an email from our publicity person saying, “You’re about to get an email I’m forwarding to you. It’s really sensitive. Just want to make sure you’re in a good head space when you read it.” I’m bracing myself and it’s from a mom and she had lost her son to suicide 37 days before, a month, and a week before. She had watched our show and then her son took his life. She stopped watching and then she returned to the show because she was hoping watching the friends grieve the loss of John would help give her closure. The letter was heartbreaking. It was like a parent’s worst nightmare. She wanted a copy of our note, which is a note that I wrote.

Dr. Barber reviewed, this is fictional, it’s not real, like, it’s not real people. I love that people felt they were real, but they’re not. I called Dr. Barber and I was like, “This mom, like she needs, she’s hurting.” She said, “I’ll tell you what to do. You should call the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. They have local chapters and the people meet regionally.” I called up and this is the part where, because the season was over, I had some time. I was like, I don’t want to give this woman a phone number. I want to give her a name. I called up, and I was like, “I’m DJ Nash. I have a show on ABC called A Million Little Things.” She said, “I know exactly who you are. The kid who struck out a kickball was super cool.” Also, it meant the mental health community.

Sounds funny these days.

The mental health community had supported the show and of course, so it was great. She said, “What’s going on?” I told her and she said, “Can you call me back in five minutes?” I called her back five minutes later. She put me in touch with a mom who had lost her son to suicide seven years before. Those two women had coffee on me. If our show did nothing else but bring those two moms together. It was enough. Even all these years later, the picture of the two of them at coffee was on the wall of the writer’s room for the remainder of the series. It’s on my phone under my favorites. Unexpected gift.

Worrying Stats On Young People

That’s amazing. Look, there are people out there that are hurting. Suicide is such a hard topic. You and I can talk about it for hours and hours. I think there are many stories of people that have unfortunately been touched by it. Let me ask you this, DJ, because I work with a lot of young people and I try to ask this question at each of my podcasts because I’m always curious about your viewpoint, a big question, but the statistics for young people, they’re bad. They’re not good. The amount of anxiety, the amount of depression, the amount of suicidal behavior in attempts.

Suicide is now the second leading cause of death in young people and that’s reported. It’s probably more like the first. That’s grown in the last 10 years. It used to be number twelve, but now it’s number two. Obviously, there is a tremendous amount more stress and a lot more laid-up things for young people. I’m curious when you think about that and you put yourself in the shoes of a young person, whether high school or college. What are your thoughts? What advice would you offer to a young person who’s hurt?

That’s a really good question. I’m comfortable enough on this to tell you that I probably should have made it out of high school. It’s only by the grace of God that I’m here. What would I tell myself then is really your question. Tell someone. Ideally, someone who can hear it. Here’s what I would tell them. There’s this famous story, I’m sure it, the guy who jumped and survived the jump off the bridge. I’m going to get the statistics of the numbers wrong, but they’re close enough, of a hundred people who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, 10% survived and 100% of them as soon as they jumped wish they hadn’t jumped. It will pass.

If you are hurting, tell someone who will listen. Share on X

There is no question that it hurts. It hurts so bad. It feels like no one cares and it feels like it won’t end. I talked to my dear buddy, Gary Gulman, who is a hilarious stand-up comedy. Gary’s amazing and he went through a lot. He did the special The Great Depression and I remember he said this because my son and I came to watch his show. He said, “I wish I could tell myself if I could tell 15-year-old me that one day someone I’m so sexually attracted to is going to walk by me naked in the bedroom, but I’m going to be so busy reading my book that I don’t even look up.”

It really is like is this going to matter in five minutes? Is this going to matter in a year? Is this going to matter? Like all of that stuff, it passes, which doesn’t mean it’s not going to get shitty again, but then it’s going to pass again. As you live in Connecticut, it’s that weather. There are sunny days, there are rainy days, there are snow days. There are unexpected days where you bring an umbrella and it’s a clear day and days where you don’t and it pours, but it passes. There is more good than there’s bad.

Listen, I so appreciate your honesty. I don’t know if you realize this or not, but by sharing what you share even about you, you connect with people out there. You let people know that they’re not alone. You let people know that beyond cliches, you let people know that are listening to this and watching this, that what they’re experiencing is not unique. As a matter of fact, statistically, it’s actually the majority of young people that are experiencing shitty things, anxiety, depression, you name it. Your thoughts on this, DJ, are so appreciated. I just want you to know, it means a lot. It means a lot for people to hear you talk so openly and honestly about this, really does.

Pandemic Effect

I appreciate that. I have found this incredible community. During the pandemic, that triggers depression, loneliness, fear of health, isolation, money issues, or any of those things. I heard this from the Surgeon General, because I was on this committee with all these like, had to go to the special kid, sixth grade English class kid was on a committee with the Surgeon General, and he said, “Every one of these issues is exacerbated by the pandemic.” We have teens and we had eight year old like my kids who we were afraid we were going to die.

It wasn’t lava. It wasn’t like the boogie man. It wasn’t something that you could go like, “You just saw that movie Sixth Sense and it scared you.” Like this was real s***. Like where I’m at. We didn’t know. “There are so many people dying. They couldn’t hold them in. There were driveways and garage.” What is normally an unjustifiable anxiety was a very justifiable anxiety. You don’t just turn that off. That’s still there. My kids lost two years of education. They’re smart kids though. Now maybe I won’t see dumb so soon in their life, but they also lost two years of social skills and two years of interacting and navigating fights and flirting with people and whatever those things are.

All of it.

One thing I always ask people when I speak somewhere, I just did it this week, I asked, “Who’s a good friend?”I say, “Show of hands, who’s a good friend?” Pretty much everyone raises their hand. Who’s a good friend of themselves? You get like half. Why not? First of all, you should be a good friend of yourself only because your friends need you as a friend.

 

Normalize It Forward | DJ Nash | Mental Health

 

That’s right. It’s a huge point. The other thing that I noticed in spades during COVID was certainly all that loss, but there was a point where our hope of future things was like teeter tottering. We weren’t hopeful anymore. Kids weren’t sure what six months from now or a year from now was going to look like. Thankfully, a lot of that’s been restored. To your point, I think that when we all went through that, I think the majority of people were feeling those depressive symptoms. I think the majority of people were feeling cooped up and anxious and isolated and maybe even a little angry at not being able to do things. Since then, there have been a lot of individuals who have still continued on that path.

It’s very easy to say, “I’m not going to go to that party.” It’s easy to skip something because we were justified before.

That’s right. Those patterns, whether it’s adults or whether it’s young kids, those patterns continue. To me, I love what you said about being a good friend to yourself and really just being good to yourself. We as human beings, we need to socialize. We as human beings, we need to do certain things to stay healthy. Our doctors remind us of that all the time. As you said, we can blow those things off or we can do those things, but really stopping and thinking about what puts a smile on my face, that’s where it’s at.

I’ll admit to you, because of being a showrunner and running a show and writing some other things and being a dad and a husband and all of these, I say to them like, “They’re all burdens. They’re all delightful opportunities I have and places I spend my time but because they’re all there, I always feel like I’m letting someone down and doing something.” In order for me to go out to dinner with a friend, that friend usually needs to either be another writer because I want to ask them about this idea or they need a favor.

The amount of times I’ve gone out to dinner with a friend because I wanted to go and I needed a night for myself. Why am I not doing that? Those moments where you fill your own bucket and you recharge, we have to do that. That’s usually my New Year’s resolution to myself to live life the way I want to, not the way I ought to, but like why aren’t we doing those things and we have those opportunities?

This is like ridiculously silly and stupid. If somebody is reading to this, it meets me one day, you can say to me, “How are your feet?” I don’t just put cream on my feet before I put my socks on. I was like, “I don’t want to have cracked feet. I’m doing this.” What does it take? Thirty-five seconds to really lotion those feet. Every day now I lotion my feet. I’m like, “You’re doing this for you, buddy. They can wait.” Just a simple task of like, I’m putting lotion on my feet before the sock.

You heard it guys. Anyone who meets DJ, ask them about his feet.

Ask me. Let’s see those. Are they cracked? If your heels are cracked, man, you’re not a good friend to yourself.

It’s funny. You referenced Gary before. I still laugh. He has so many funny things, but I still laugh when he goes through his JCC stick.

You never know, Gary. You never know. We know, Mom. We know.

Just hysterical.

Behind The Scenes Of The Show

That’s a phrase we say around the house, you never know, Gary. Certain things have come from my friends like I have a bunch of friends who are really successful comics who kept doing it. Gary’s one of them, like, “You never know, Gary. You never know.” I want to ask you this because you were so generous, truly, a million things as a show you liked. What storyline in particular spoke to you?

There were so many. There were so many. I think that in the first show, that scene that I described with Rome really spoke to me, I think as a male, and just that sense of when’s he going to tell people like what happened. That resonated with me a lot. Forgive me, I cannot remember all of the characters’ names.

It’s okay. Either can.

As a therapist when she was sick.

Maggie.

Yeah, it really resonated because we’re human beings too. We’re taking on lots of issues that come our way in our office but there’s there’s s*** that comes up for us too all the time. It spoke to me around the concept of really everybody should be seeing somebody at some point in their world and dealing with their own issues. Gary’s character, I don’t know what I could say. I mean, loved Gary’s character, just amazing. An amazing human being. The surprise factor of his sarcasm and then his mix between that and his care and concern for people was just awesome.

Just to tell you two quick stories. When I met with James, James Roday Rodriguez played Gary beautifully. I had talked to his agent and he’s like, “You got to meet James and I will tell you candidly, I had never watched Psych. I knew his face and I just didn’t know him. Honestly, as was true of all the characters, all the actors, I didn’t care how you were in something else, I care how you are in this. I knew that Gary was like the key because if he can deliver a joke, we have a series. If he cannot, it’s just really sad.

It’s just a sad sack of s***. I said to his agent, he’s going to have to read with me. He’s like, “He’ll read.” I’m like, “I know, but he’s a big actor. I just need you to tell him ahead of time. I don’t want it to be awkward.” “He’ll read.” He comes into this meeting. He’s wearing gym shorts and a T-shirt that definitely he didn’t pull out of the drawer today.

He’s wearing black socks and sliders. I remember the name of the sliders because he bought me a pair because I referenced this a lot. I go into those, “James is here. I walk out to meet him, bring him back.” I’m like, “Okay.” Not sending a signal that he wants this gig. Like, “Are those your best sliders?” They were by the way. He came back and he said, “I read the script. I really loved it.” That’s very kind. I could tell it affected him. I said, “That’s really nice.” I told him the story. I had this friend and I was in a bad place myself. I was really feeling down.

I was walking one day at lunch, just psych myself up to go back to work in the afternoon. I ran into a buddy of mine and he was also in a bad place, but we both lit up. I’m like, “Dude, we should have lunch.” It wasn’t like a LABS thing, we meant it. He said, “I’m really busy this week. How about next week?” I’m like, “Yes, but we’re doing it.” He killed himself. James looks at me and he goes,” He really didn’t want to have lunch with you, did he?” Unbelievable. It is as inappropriate as it is funny.

That sounds like it’s Gary.

It’s Gary. I said to him, “Dude, if you can do that because I’m going to write you that but if you can deliver that, we have a series.” The daughter’s playing guitar for her dad. If she plays something by Bruno Mars, I’m going to burn this place down. It became this really fun thing because James and I, this talking to him many times a week is probably the thing about the show I miss the most because I just love him. I was pretty much a stickler that we need to get it as written. You can surprise me with alternate takes, but I need it as written.

One week I was watching the daily, I’m watching a cut. The editor assembles, the director’s cut, the director does a quick pass and then I’m looking at what the show is that we’re making. It’s the episode where it’s Theo’s birthday. I think it’s that Gary leaves the party because he has to go give the dog back or something like that, something in that vein. As he leaves this kid’s birthday party, by the door are the goodie bags, which someone from Props just put, in because you’d have that there. It’s never in the script.

It was not like the people on our crew were so attentive that that’s a detail they had it. He just grabs three bags and leaves, which obviously is going to cause a problem because you have exactly as many as the guy. He needed three good and plenties or whatever. It was so funny. I call him up like, “Dude, that’s incredible.” We were doing an episode, and I’ll be vague because I don’t want to wreck stuff, but there’s a point in the series where Gary’s going through some really rough stuff and he just doesn’t want to be treated differently.

He really doesn’t want to be treated differently. He yells at the whole friend group in a loving way because it’s his turn because we sometimes do that. The group disperses to someone broke a glass, someone goes to clean it up, and now he’s alone with his good buddy, Rome. Gary’s been battling breast cancer for the last 18 months of his life and Rome’s been battling depression. They have two guys with diseases. Gary shares that he’s scared, that when you beat cancer, you don’t believe you’ll beat it forever, you think I’d beat it until the next screening.

A lot of stuff that he said in the pilot has come back for him. Rome says and he’s yelled at everyone, “Do not treat me differently. I don’t want to be treated differently.” Rome says, “This is not me treating you differently.” He gives Gary a hug, which is like two bros hugging in a show. It’s an earned moment. Like I directed the episode and we started with Romany’s coverage, meaning the camera is on Rome’s face. We’re shooting over Gary’s back to Rome’s face and he hugs and we’re in the scene. I don’t yell cut because I think maybe something magical will happen.

It doesn’t. I yell cut and I think they even joke like DJ just wants his hug in as long as possible or something like that. I yell cut and I had often did this. I did it a lot in the pilot and I can tell moments, but I sometimes change things and only tell one actor. The courtesy I do is I tell the other actor something’s different this time, stay in it. I said that to Romany and I pulled James aside. I love both these guys can like, you give them a joke, they’ll hit it out of the park. I said, “James, next take, I’m not going to yell cut. When you feel it’s right, say this.”

I whispered in his ear and he’s like, “Okay.” We do the scene. I’m really scared, Rome says, this is not me treating you differently. He gives his friend a hug and we stay in it, like we’re in it. On Rome’s coverage, you hear Gary say to him, “Correct me if I’m wrong, but did your penis just touch my penis?” Everyone on set, I go, “Cut, that’s awesome.” We’re not using that. We’re totally using it. That’s what friends are. Like that’s what you do. I had the great pleasure, like the privilege. I knew what the finale of our series was going to be when I pitched the pilot.

I just knew the story and I kept it from a lot of people along the way. I let people in who needed to know because it affected how they were playing certain parts. I said to James, “Do you want to write the finale with me?” He was like, “Dude, you already know what it is.” I’m like, “I do but we’re going to make it better if we write it together.” He was like, “I only want to write it with you if it turns out exactly the way you want it to.” I’m like, “Me too.” That’s exactly what I want to, “Great.” I’m so glad we got that cleared up.

We wrote this finale together and 85% of it is stuff I knew. 15%, the things that you would point out and go, “I love that moment,” James wrote. It was so fun to do it together because he had to do a lot of things physically as an actor to get ready for the finale. I was directing the finale. We were both in the backseat as Rome and Eddie were doing that scene about where we were going to get the drugs. Those two dudes who are really funny were never funnier than in that. It was so funny. “That’s my girl. Why is she your girl?”

The honor of working with twelve actors who were even kinder off-camera than their characters were on camera. If I asked them to show up, like Allison who played Maggie, and James who played Gary, we were done with Maggie’s wig. I said, “Let’s fly and give it to a woman with breast cancer.” They did, we flew and we gave. I asked them to show up to a mental health thing. “Yeah, where are we going?” Even after the series ended, Romany flew halfway across the country to do it. As you watch our series, and I hope you do, they are as kind as you hope they are. Every single one of them.

I can only say I’ve met Stephanie.

Stephanie is great, who plays Delilah.

If they’re half as kind as her, I get it. These are special human beings and your show was beyond amazing. I could sit and say to you and blow smoke at you. It meant a lot to me because of the topics. I think that it gives people the opportunity to talk about things that they’re not talking about. I think that one show after the next, there’s something you can take from every show. It could be a bit about a character, it could be a bit about a topic.

I often find myself saying to parents have you asked your kids what it’s like to be a high schooler now? Have those conversations because these are topics that you wrote about in your show and these are topics that are happening in real life in people’s worlds and they’re not getting talked about. I thank you, number one, for bringing the show to the public. It’s a gift for everybody. Again, if you haven’t seen it, please watch it. It’s amazing.

Make sure you’re watching it, the pilot. Make sure you’re watching the pilot when you’re in a good place.

I agree.

There’s a suicide in the pilot. Make sure you’re taking care of yourself. Any episodes that are particularly, potentially triggering have warnings in front of them. That first episode is a lot.

I appreciate you saying that it is. It can be triggering. I totally agree with what you’re saying. Again, the topics, amazing. The actors and actresses, amazing. I think taking this next step and having this conversation and really letting parents out there now and letting young adults out there now, just how important all of these conversations can be at times they’re life-changing, they’re life-saving.

Trina from Give an Hour, who Stephanie introduced me to, I recently interviewed, she used the phrase suicide protection, and I like that. I think that’s a good phrase. I think suicide protection is all about being there and asking a hard question if you need to to a friend. As a guy, if you got to throw a bro in there to do it, I don’t give a shit. Throw a bro in there. “Bro, how you doing? What’s up? You okay? Like I’m concerned about you.” Ask the question.

I don’t know whether we have to wrap up or what.

We got time.

The year before I had a pilot that did not go to series and I actually think it paved the way for me and little things, if I hadn’t done that pilot, I wouldn’t have been able to make them in little things and we can get into that if you want. The reason I’m mentioning that is when you have a pilot that is finished but hasn’t been decided on yet by the network, it’s like in pilot purgatory. You’re not supposed to show it to anyone. In fact, there’s this like a famous story of a network president finding out that someone showed the pilot and so then they didn’t pick up the pilot out of spite.

The year before I had a pilot that I really believed in. It was actually the storyline between Rome and Walter in the last season that was primarily based on this series. Anyway, I didn’t show it to people and then the pilot didn’t go forward and I was like, “I don’t want to pull all my friends together for a failed pilot. That’s super sad.” When A Million Little Things was in pilot purgatory, I said to eight couples that I’m really friends with, some of whom influenced the relationships on the show, I said, “I have a home movie I want to show you.

Do you want to come over and see it?” Eighteen people, my wife and I and our eight couples, sat in our living room and we watched the pilot to A Million Little Things. When the pilot was over, the women got up and started talking. The men just sat there. I remember so clearly, my friend, I won’t say his name for privacy purposes, or he’s probably so vain, he wants me to say, you want me to. Anyway, he said, “I feel like that all the time, and I’ve never told anyone.” We just sat there and he was like, so when I pitched the show, there was a concern with women watch it.

When we tested the show, not a single woman dropped out, and the reason they didn’t drop out is as said in the testing was, he gave us a chance to see a side of men we don’t normally get to see. I think for my friend, it was like, you’re being honest about feelings we have that we haven’t really shared. When their friend dies, it is just the kick in the pants that the group needs to finally be honest about things that are going on. Their friend’s death becomes this catalyst. This is not a show about one friend dying. A Million Little Things is a series about seven friends finally living.

I love that. In putting together, your intro, A Million Little Things pushed us to reconsider how we treat each other.

You wrote that, right?

I did not write that.

 

Normalize It Forward | DJ Nash | Mental Health

 

Where is that?

Google wrote that. I don’t know who wrote that. I grabbed it from somewhere on the internet.

I was like, that’s not my normal bio, but I love it.

That is your show. That’s the gift. I think the gift of us all remembering how important that is because there’s always something else to run to. There’s always something else to choose to do, but nothing should be more important than the safety of anybody we know. Sometimes it’s just spending a few extra minutes. Sometimes it’s putting cream on our feet and making ourselves comfortable but just really and truly recognizing, “Just because I’m happy today doesn’t mean other people are.” If I truly care about other people, I better let them know that.

You may not have the chance. I don’t want to be in that negative place of it could change tomorrow, but it could change tomorrow. Some people have said they didn’t take their life because someone said hi to them as they were walking by. I say hi to everybody. It’s really a problem. My wife’s like, “Come on, stop. We got to go places.” That’s a real thing.

If you are in a negative place now, never lose the chance that it could change tomorrow. Share on X

I think it’s just an immensely powerful message. I’m hoping people walk away after reading this, remembering that at least for a few days, hopefully longer but really realizing in our daily travels, sometimes all it takes is a hello.

That is Gary’s, I don’t want to wreck for the pilot, but Gary’s big speeches. We’re going to do this for three weeks and then we’re going to be back doing the same shit we always do. That is the challenge that he puts to the group. That’s the challenge you’re putting to us.

Episode Wrap-up

Thank you for the gift, DJ. Honestly, it was amazing. I’m so excited to see your next show. I know they’re in development and I know you’ll let us know when they’re out. Certainly, I’m a huge fan. I know many people out there are huge fans of your work and certainly a million little things and everything it brought to us. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Amazing, thank you but have people check out the show and, I don’t know if you did this, I have a podcast with little stories and we often went through episodes as it’s happening. They’re numbered so you can follow along.

I listened to your two shows with Gary. It was fantastic.

Gary, I love that dude.

Fantastic.

People can reach me through the website too if they want to reach out with a question or an idea or something like that.

What’s your website?

AMillionLittleStories.com. There’s a place to ask DJ a question, I think. My assistant is very good about getting it to me right away. I’m very bad about responding right away, but I do respond all the time. I’ve met some incredible people through it.

Look, you walk the walk and talk the talk and you put yourself out there. You’re a helper, you’re a kind person and you’re a human being. Thank you for all of those things. Thank you for your time.

Thank you, Brad. This was fun. It was cool to get different questions. I like it.

If I’m ever out in California, I’ll call you, we’ll have dinner just because.

Let’s do it. I don’t know about dinner because that’s like usually family time and I have to put my cream out.

Lunch.

Yeah, good lunch. I’m a good lunch guy.

Sounds good. Thanks again, DJ.

You will. If you see Stephanie before I do, tell her I love her.

I will. I definitely will. Thanks again.

Stephanie’s probably listening.

She might be. You never know.

Bye.

See you, DJ. Thanks.

Bye-bye.

 

Important Links

Normalize It Forward | Tyler Ganus | Time Management

 

Baseball player-turned-coach Tyler Ganus shares valuable insights about time management and how it can lead to achieving peak performance. Discover various strategies on using your time accordingly to strike the right balance between athletic and academic success. Explore the importance of having an unbreakable mindset and positive work ethic during your college years. Learn how to navigate failure without getting stuck and maintain a positive outlook. Plus, discover practical self-care tips to elevate your lifestyle and save you from anxiety that often leads to self-sabotage.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Time Management And Mental Health With Tyler Ganus

Introduction

My name is Marc Lehman, and this is Normalize It Forward. We are here welcoming Tyler Ganus. He is a baseball alumnus from Harvard Westlake, the University of Oregon, and Northwestern University. He’s left a legacy in each of these programs, embodying the phrase do it with passion, or not at all. I love that. He has enjoyed being an energetic spark plug on the field. On the field, some of his accolades include Team USA Silver Medalist, 2023 Pac-12 Champion, 2023 Rawlings Batting Title Awardee, and currently, he is going into his final year of collegiate ball at Northwestern. In the classroom, he has attained summa cum laude from Oregon and Northwestern.

Congratulations, that’s huge. Being a six-time Dean’s List honoree, he successfully earned his undergraduate degree in music in three years and completed his first graduate certificate in sports communication this past year. He’s excited to continue helping young baseball players with his own ten-week coaching course while pursuing another graduate certificate in technology and entrepreneurship. Welcome, so nice to have you here, Tyler. How are you?

Thank you so much for having me. I’m pumped to be here. Let’s get going.

Awesome. We were chatting just a few minutes ago, and I was just explaining to you a little bit about Normalize It Forward. As a family therapist, having worked with so many young people, and also as a coach to my son who played baseball for years, I counted once, I coached nineteen seasons of his baseball over the years from very little to high school. I’ve just been around athletes and athletics really my entire career.

I would really want to get your perspective on athletics because athletics have really changed a lot, even in the last couple of years on the collegiate level, in many different sports. I’m curious about your thoughts around athletics for young people. I know it’s a huge topic, but give me your thoughts. What do you think?

 

Normalize It Forward | Tyler Ganus | Time Management

 

I think that’s a great starting point. Athletics for young people, I think it’s everything. For me, being able to jump into baseball when I was pretty young, around four years old. My dad also coached me early on in my career, and it’s been awesome. Just to meet friends, number one, number two, to have someone to compete with and be united under a common goal. From a young age, you learn what that’s like, collaborate with other athletic kids and try to go win games. I think it’s really fun. Also, I think big for work ethic too. I think from a young age, especially in this age, there’s so many talented athletes across all sports.

I think the earlier that you get into it, the better. I think you find out pretty quickly that you need to work really hard, have a great work ethic, and have a really good mindset in order to stick with it, continue to improve, and eventually get to the next level, whatever that may be. Whether it’s a travel team early on, middle school team, high school team, college ball, and so on, I think it’s great to start young for sure.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think with athletics, there’s a formula of you’re blessed with some talent, you’re blessed with some work ethic, and then you put all the energy into it. I see some kids that have the goal of just wanting to be on the field. I have some kids that want to win. I have some kids that want to get to the next level, but I think there are so many things you get from sports. I’m really glad you mentioned that ethic piece, because I think that ethic piece translates to other things off the field.

A hundred percent. It’s interesting too, as a student-athlete in college, I think you really get to experience that because you’re playing a sport in college and you have to be great in the classroom as well. That’s something I work on a lot with my mentorship programs, where I’m able to coach a lot of young athletes, specifically baseball players, and just say, “You’ve got to be good on the field, but you’ve got to be good in the classroom too.” You’ve got to understand what it takes to get an A or B in the class, be super professional, and get your work done. It’s definitely translated to a lot of different areas in my life, personally, just starting with athletics from a pretty young age. It definitely can relate to a lot of areas, like you said.

That’s awesome. Let me ask, because this year, one of my new adventures is consulting in a private school, Avon Old Farms, in our area. It was George Springer’s school back in the day in high school. We were chatting about him. Often, I meet kids that are going to these schools in high school, and they’re very talented kids. They’re clearly going to go play college baseball. I guess I’m curious because you’ve done it. Any thoughts, any suggestions for those kids?

I could go on for days on this. I think that the work ethic piece we’ve already touched on is number one. When you’re in high school, one of the best things you can do to prepare for college athletics is create a really strong work ethic. Paired with that is also an unbreakable mindset, what I like to call it, this unwavering belief in yourself as a player and student-athlete, and not letting comparisons of other players or what coaches, other players, or scouts think of you creep into any of that and break that down.

The two pinnacles for me are definitely that mindset and the work ethic piece. I think when athletes can start there and really work on that in high school and they get to college, things are as easy as they can be. When you come in as a freshman, it’s that whirlwind year, and you’re figuring stuff out. In the midst of getting your bearings, I think if you have a little bit of that foundation built, it makes it a lot easier.

I think I asked you a tough question, but you gave a great answer. That is a tough thing to consider. I was just thinking, I’m a huge fan of baseball, and baseball in particular is a sport where the greatest player ever had a batting average of 400, and so that is less than the majority. In many cases, you have to learn how to fail. You have to learn how, and how to come back from that.

I think if I could just jump in, I think that’s an awesome little mini segue because I wanted to touch on that in our time. I think that’s a huge piece. Any baseball player out there, if you’re young and you’re listening to this, it’s a game of failure. At the college level, I’ve had success, some of my teammates have had success, and we’re still failing 60%, 70% of the time, which is crazy. You do that in class, you fail. Anywhere else in life, it’s unheard of. You’ve got to just keep going and stick with it, continuing to just improve and grow and understand that failure is a part of the process. Everyone goes through it, and the more you can embrace that, the better off you’re going to be for sure.

Failures are part of the process. Everyone goes through it. Learn to embrace it and you will be better off for sure. Share on X

I’m glad you compared it to the classroom, because even this past week, I found myself talking to my freshman students that have gone off to college. Some of them are like, “I just want to get A’s.” I’m like, “I get it. I know you want to do well, but realize that at this age, you are going to fail in order to grow. That’s part of the process.” If you think about it, going way back to tying your shoes or anything else we did when we were little, you always fail at first in order to grow. Some kids will eliminate that. They’re like, “I want to start off,” then they have to deal with the difficulty that comes along with not starting that way. I really appreciate that.

I think in many ways, one of the reasons why I love athletics is that athletics really do parallel life. It works for young people, certainly schoolwork in the classroom, and then eventually, occupation. I’m guessing too, Tyler, two big topics, but time management and self-care must go into being a college athlete and being a young person to balance that, because the amount of hours that you spend with workouts and practices and games in some ways is more than that. How do you balance that in terms of time?

It’s a great question. It’s ironic too, because I don’t know if you know my whole background, but that’s probably the number one question I get asked the most in interviews and podcasts and from whoever. Growing up, I was born into, like, an entrepreneurial mindset. I had a ton of different passions that I really wanted to pursue at a young age. It took a lot of time management. Obviously, in college, just being a student-athlete takes a lot to begin with. When I grew up in Los Angeles, I started acting professionally when I was two years old. I did that all the way to the end of high school, super intensely on the side. I also studied classical piano, music production, the recording artist life, if you will, did a lot of competitions with the classical piano stuff all the way through the end of high school.

On top of that, you obviously have baseball and a really rigorous school program too, at Harvard Westlake, which was the school that I went to. That’s really tough for people that know that school, and so it’s a lot, for sure, to manage. I say that as a preface for how I manage my time. It’s all about preparation. It’s all about the night before, the week before, the month before. The more you can prepare and block out your days of “I’ve got a test on this day, that means I’ve got to study a day before, maybe a week before, and make sure I have this assignment done.”

The more you can get ahead with your communication with your professors, your teachers, directors, whatever it is, to be like, “This is my schedule. It’s crazy, but I want to stay ahead of the curve. Here’s what I’ve got. I wanted to make sure you’re aware of this before we dive in this week, so we can all be on the same page.” Little things like that go a very long way in terms of professionalism and in terms of stress levels, especially with mental health in general. Instead of figuring out your days on the fly, where you don’t know what you’re doing, that can cause a lot of stress. In order to combat that, prepare an extra night before, on Sunday, before your week starts. Plan out your week, whether it’s with a pen and paper or with an online calendar. I prefer the online version.

 

Normalize It Forward | Tyler Ganus | Time Management

 

Plan out your week, what do you have scheduled? That way, as you go about your days, everything’s already done for you. You can go throughout your days with less stress and really know, “I know this comes next. I know when I’m eating. I know when I’m waking up. I know when I have my free time. I know when I’m going to hang out with my friends. I know when I’m going to do my assignments.” In general, I think to tie it all back together, the biggest takeaway is preparation is everything. Plan ahead as much as you can, and it will give you less stress on the back end.

I love it, and I want to highlight for my young people, listen to Tyler. He knows what he’s talking about. The simplicity of organization reduces anxiety, having a plan. Many of my students go into the week with no plan, and they’ll walk out of a class midday on a Monday with no sense of what they should be doing. They’ll either take a nap, go smoke some pot, or go goof off. They don’t really have a plan. For them, because there’s no plan at 12:00 noon, if they goof around for a few hours, it doesn’t seem like a big deal, until later when their buddy’s saying, “Do you want to watch Monday Night Football?” and they can’t because they’ve got to go do work. I love what you’re saying.

I think that if there’s any one thing, I’d love young people to really hear loud and clear is plan the night before. Have a plan for that next day and get a good sense. I even heard you say plan for some free time. Fine, if you’ve got three hours in the afternoon and you don’t have anything planned, that’s fine. Just have that sense of “I’ve got some free time. I can go hang out. I can do this. I can do that.” I love that. I think there’s a distinct connection between good time management and less anxiety. I think what you said was really wise. As an athlete, there are so many kids progressing into college athletics, as an athlete, you have no choice.

Self-Care

You either get really organized, or you’re going to get super overwhelmed, and then, of course, your productivity will go down. We don’t want that to happen. Great suggestion. Mixed into that, I’m curious about self-care. Self-care is a phrase that’s thrown around a lot. I have my own definition of what I think of when I hear that, but I’m curious, when you hear the term self-care, what does that mean to you?

Great question. I think it’s putting yourself first. I think that’s a great way to put it, for me personally. It’s making sure that you’re okay before you give to others, before you interact with others, before you engage with others. It’s making sure that you’re good. For me, I’ll just piggyback off of that. Self-care is huge for me. Meditation, mindfulness, visualization, journaling, all of that stuff has been really big from a young age. My parents taught me that when I was pretty young, which I’m very grateful for because I’ve made that a staple of my life. It’s really helped me stay calm and manage my time, in a sense, be able to give back to other people, but really, more important than anything, just keep my mental health steady and keep it healthy.

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I think that there are so many tools out there that you can use to make sure that you’re doing okay. Whether it’s literally buying a journal, writing in it for a couple of minutes a day at the end of the day or something like that, or in the morning, maybe writing some gratitudes down, or doing a meditation, or taking a walk and just observing things around you. As simple as that, a few deep breaths. There are so many different things that you can do that don’t take a lot of time, truly. Every single day, just building that habit out to where you’re constantly framing your mindset in a way that’s more positive than negative, and constantly just making sure that you’re good. That’s the key. I think if you check in with yourself at least once a day and do something quick like that, it’ll go a long way.

I think those are all awesome suggestions. One thing that I pull out from what you said is you have to actively do something. That’s not going to just happen. Taking a few deep breaths before you go to bed will help a bit, but if you set aside a little bit of time, it doesn’t even have to be a lot. Nowadays, everybody’s carrying one of these. Lots of people have earbuds. Sit down for five minutes. Listen to a meditation. If you’ve never meditated before, listen to one. Some great apps out there, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Calm or Headspace or any of the others. A lot of the young people that I talk to use those. I think the journaling concept is awesome. Really amazing.

This is great because I think it ties into something I wanted to ask you about. That is, in my career, I’ve been doing this for 25 years, I’ve seen trends. Unfortunately, some of the ones I’ve seen in the last 5 to 10 years have been trending in all the wrong directions. Anxiety is way up. Depression, way up in young people. The suicide rate is also way up. These days, it’s reported around, I think it’s the second leading cause of death in young people. It’s a scary word no one ever likes to talk about until there’s a tragedy, and then you can’t help but talk about it. I think that most people I’ve talked to your age, they’ve been around. They’ve known people that have either taken their own lives or tried to.

It’s just a reality of our world in that I look at the severe side of mental health as it involves that. I guess I’m curious in general, Tyler, this is your age bracket we’re talking about. I guess I’m wondering, when you hear anxiety and depression are way up, why do you think that is?

Putting me on the spot here.

It’s a big one, I know. There’s a lot of reasons, but I’m just curious.

Social Media

Good question. Honestly, I think a lot of it is social media. My brain goes to that first. I think a lot of people are spending time on screens more than ever, unfortunately, and not necessarily outside or taking care of their mental health. If you’re watching things that are entertaining, that are maybe dark, that are more negative, even if it’s slightly negative, you’re constantly reprogramming your brain, your subconscious mind, to attract that. Unfortunately, that leads to more negative thoughts. It leads to more negativity overall, and it’s not good for anyone. Unfortunately, I think social media, as great as it is in a lot of ways to stay connected and to stay entertained and to have another method of communication, if you will, on there, I think that’s great.

If you are watching mostly negative content, you are constantly reprogramming your subconscious mind to attract negativity. Share on X

There are definitely some scary sides of it. I think the more people can be a little bit more aware of how much time they’re spending, maybe setting a reminder. I know Instagram just put in, over the past couple of years, basically a reminder function where you can set a reminder ten minutes after you use an app, like ten minutes straight, they can pop up and say, “You’ve been using the app for a little bit, maybe time to get off” or something like that. I think utilizing tools like that will be really powerful to maybe help combat something like that. I think that’s where I’ll leave it for now. I think that we don’t need to get any more in-depth into it. It’s just to be a little more aware of your social media time.

That’s a big one. I think social media, you hit the nail on the head. There’s positives and negatives, and I think that I’m fascinated by the whole algorithm thing in that you go, and you look at one of these videos that’s a little dark, and you don’t even have to work to find more dark videos. They just get sent to you. Not even really a whole lot of thought, you’re pushed in one direction or the other. One of the concepts I talk about a lot, and it certainly has some athletic backdrop to it, is the defensive side of someone just defending their day, meaning no plan. They hop into TikTok scrolling and YouTube scrolling, and their day goes, like they don’t get their work done.

They’re not really on top of their mental health versus being offensive-minded, having a plan, and really saying, I’m going to take control of my day. I’m going to get good rest. I’m going to do one thing different this week than I did last, so that this week I’m feeling a little more human, a little bit more in control, even if it’s just drinking more water. Just making that one decision to say, offensively, I’m going to grab the bull by the horns and do this, because guess what? If you don’t, no one else is. As you get a little bit older, you start to realize, like Tyler’s the one making decisions for Tyler, and so is Marc’s making his own decisions. You have to take that and realize, like, it’s up to me as an adult in this world.

A hundred percent.

I agree. Social media is a tough one. There’s a lot of real negative things on there. One of the biggest reasons, Tyler, I created Normalize It Forward is I really felt like because of the statistics and the way mental health is for young people in particular, it really helps to get open conversation and dialogue like this. I appreciate, number one, you taking the time to sit with me and have this talk. You’ve made some great suggestions and given, hopefully, our listeners some really good ideas of things you’ve used or other people that you’ve known have used, and just really good thoughts in terms of easy things to consider. Those that haven’t considered journaling, pick up a journal and just give it a shot.

 

Normalize It Forward | Tyler Ganus | Time Management

 

Start writing some of your thoughts out and see if that helps, and guess what? If it doesn’t, try something else. There’s a lot of options and opportunities out there for us. At the end of the day, our mental health, it’s ours. It’s ours to maintain and have some conversation about. I like to try to encourage young people beyond listening to a podcast like this, talk to your friends, find out what they’re doing, and find out what seems to help them and what seems to work, because I think the more we can talk openly about these things, the more we can be successful. Again, I so appreciate you taking the time. I know you’re busy, Tyler, so I appreciate you doing that. Can I ask one other favor of you? I’m going to put you on the spot with this one.

Sure, go for it.

Nominate Someone

Normalize It Forward. The whole concept of it is that I want the conversation to continue. I usually ask toward the end of our interviews if you have someone you want to nominate, a friend, a coworker, a relative, someone in your world who you think could be helpful for me to interview next, to have more of a conversation about mental health. What do you think? Any thoughts, anyone in mind?

Totally. I have a bunch of baseball teammates that I can definitely reach out to, for sure, and get you guys in contact.

Awesome. I would love to do that. We’ll get that offline. I look forward to connecting with them, Tyler. Again, just so appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much.

Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Great talking to you. Have a great day. Take care.

 

About Tyler Ganus

Normalize It Forward | Tyler Ganus | Time ManagementA baseball alumnus from Harvard-Westlake, the University of Oregon, and Northwestern University, he has left a legacy in each of the programs. Embodying the phrase, “Do it with passion or not at all,” he has enjoyed being an energetic spark plug on the field.

On the field, he is a Team USA Silver Medalist, 2023 Pac-12 Champion, 2023 Rawlings Batting Title Awardee, and is currently going into his final year of collegiate baseball at Northwestern. In the classroom, he graduated summa cum laude from both Oregon and Northwestern while being a 6x dean’s list honoree.

He successfully earned his undergraduate degree in music in 3 years and completed his first graduate certificate in sports communication last year. In his final year at Northwestern, he is excited to continue helping young baseball players with his own 10-week coaching course while pursuing another graduate certificate in Technology Entrepreneurship.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Stephanie Szostak | Interactive Playbook

 

There is no single approach to taking care of your mental health; you do what works best for you. To help people determine the most effective ones for them, French-American actress Stephanie Szostak created the interactive playbook SELF!SH. She joins Marc Lehman to share how this collection of different practices helped elevate her mental fitness, eliminate imposter syndrome, and live a truly authentic life. They also discuss how young people should properly navigate social media, spend more time on their self-care regimens, and escape the pressure of having everything figured out.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Interactive Playbook For Mental Fitness With Stephanie Szostak

Welcome everybody. We are welcoming an extra special guest to Normalize It Forward, the podcast that talks openly about mental health and wellness. We are here with Stephanie Szostak, who is a French-American actress best known for roles in Devil Wears Prada, Iron Man 3, and the ABC hit series A Million Little Things, also my very favorite show of all time. She speaks on being an outsider, overcoming failure and mental fitness, and living with authenticity. Ten years into her career, Stephanie suffered from imposter syndrome, which pushed her to address her mindset and develop a personal playbook as a daily practice of mental fitness.

Her book, Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning, which, by the way, is phenomenal, steps into a journey of self-discovery to revive confidence, joy, and meaning, and offers a template for others to create their own unique playbook to cope, grow, and elevate their mindset. As a part of her commitment to mental health, she has donated half of her proceeds from Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning to the mental health organization Give An Hour and is actively working on launching the Selfish app later this year. Stephanie, welcome. How are you?

I’m good. I’m excited to speak with you, Marc. It’s amazing what you’re doing.

Writing The Book

Thank you so much. We are super excited to have you here, and I think you offer a viewpoint that is very unique, and I love what you’re doing as well. Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning is a book that I’ve begun myself and looked into and read about half of it so far. I’m taking my time with it, but it is such a spot-on awesome self-help book. I don’t know if that’s quite the right category, but it’s such a unique book that I really want my listeners to think about going out and getting. Tell us more a little bit about Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning and how that came about.

I like that you used the word self-help because it’s a little bit of a dirty word, I think, but it is self-help because it’s an interactive workbook for you to discover more about yourself, and it’s eight self-reflective exercises. I didn’t make them up. Actually, one of them I made up, the one about joy. They’re versions of exercises that I’ve done through the years that were given to me by therapists or coaches, but all exercises that really I’ve benefited from and that brought me aha moments, helped me be more at ease with who I was, and have more clarity and more confidence in hard moments. The reason they were put into a book was because when I went through my journey of well-being, whether it be meeting with therapists, reading books, or listening to podcasts, I found so much content that was helpful. My challenge was, “How do I remember it?”

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Stephanie Szostak | Interactive Playbook

 

I created what I call a playbook, which is a digital place on my phone. Every morning, I hit play on it. There’s my soundtrack, the music. It’s a little slideshow. After three minutes, it’s a great reminder and start of the day to get in a good mood, to remind myself of what helps me respond, and of what inspires me. I like to say, you know how we have iTunes or Spotify for music? We can curate our own playlists for different moments in our lives. This is curating different playbooks for different moments of your life. You can have a joy playbook. You could have a playbook for every day. You could have a playbook before you go on set or before you take an exam.

I love it. What a great idea.

When I explained this concept, people always were like, “What do you put in your playbook?” I looked at my own, and I realized a lot of this content came from these exercises. The workbook is meant for people to have a foundation, a starter point. Every answer to each exercise that you not answer, but insight that you discover, you will put in your playbook. At the end, you’ll have a great little foundation there.

Self-Care

I love it. I think that there’s so many levels to it. I’ve always said, honestly, my whole career, I’ve always said selfish gets such a bad name. When people have to take care of themselves, sometimes there’s that fine line of like, “Are you being selfish?” There’s that negative connotation. Yet we’re supposed to go to the doctor every year. We’re supposed to get our eyes checked. We’re supposed to get our teeth cleaned. Those self-care habits are really a part of not only being a human being but certainly a part of trying to keep one’s mental health stable. I talk to students about that all the time, the importance of taking care. I’m curious, when you hear the phrase self-care, what does that mean to you?

First, the title Selfish. I just want to give a little shout-out to The Big Brands because they’re a local branding company, and they’re the ones who came up with the title amongst others. They had different names. When I saw it, it jumped at me because it was so counterintuitive. Also, because it had the word self in it and because I could then play with it and say that it’s about taking time for yourself every day.

Self-care, to me, means anything that is going to serve me well. It could be physical things. It could be things for my mind. It could be spiritual things, creative. It’s just things that fuel or build energy within, things that refuel me. I don’t know if you’re asking what specific practices I do, but I think that’s almost irrelevant because we are so different, every one of us. There are so many things out there that you can do for your own self-care, and it’s about finding what works for you.

I think that’s the important part, finding what works for you, because what works for you may not work for me. What works for me may not work for you. Yet, working with students all the time, I hear about so many different ways students chill out or cool off or clear their head. There are certainly themes. There are certainly themes that they can go to. It’s really interesting how young people don’t see how important that is. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I think maybe what would be helpful is, instead of saying self-care as a practice, it’s what gives you this feeling after you do it, that you’re like, “I feel like myself.” I feel this opened, open feeling, as opposed to constricted. We all have these two things. For me, there’s a spectrum. I can be judgmental, angry, pessimistic. At the other side of the spectrum, I find myself sometimes trusting and just, like, centered, grounded. What are those things that help you shift on the spectrum?

I love that. I love that because it really takes away the focus on how you get there and just the goal. The goal. We all like being there. We all like that feeling. There are so many different paths to getting there.

Realizing that you do have the agency to get there, the getting there is not external, that we can play a role if we have a little bit of awareness. I think that’s the key. Everything starts with developing self-awareness, understanding what our triggers are or the moments where we lose this groundedness, and then discovering what helps us in those moments.

Everything starts with developing self-awareness and understanding what our triggers are. Share on X

Creating Balance

In comparison to young people, obviously you and I have a few years over college kids. We have learned that. We’ve made our mistakes and we’ve stumbled, and we’ve figured out what does help us. I like the word you use, agency. We have agency over making those decisions to say, “I’m going to just throw some earbuds in. I’m going to go for a walk. I’m going to listen to my playlist,” let’s say, and that will help me shift and be in a better zone. Because we all get pessimistic, we all get negative, we all get in that. No one likes that. We’re not a good family member. We’re not a good individual when we feel that.

I’m so happy you remind me that our audience is young people because, going back a few decades, when I was in college, I had a really tough time. I came from France, and I so came to America, had huge culture shock, didn’t know the language well, didn’t know humor. I felt really isolated and didn’t have a sense of belonging, so much so that I actually cried every day. I want to say, sometimes we want to be in that space. I remember being in my room and listening intentionally to sad music. There’s a fine balance about staying in that space too long. It’s not serving you well, but also you don’t want to be like, “I’m not feeling this,” and not taking the time to acknowledge what you’re going through.

I like the word coexisting. We could have sadness, we could have pain, suffering, and find within that, make space for small moments of joy, or taking a walk, or listening to music. “I’m going to try to listen to music that makes me feel good.” Maybe the music that reconnects me to a really cool memory that I had. I love this idea of taking time when we don’t feel good but making space for light as we are in that space.

As a human being, we’re going to feel both. I think what you just said about how you felt when you moved to the States and started school, so many college students are feeling right now. Many of them have started their semesters, and many conversations have been had, even by myself in the last few weeks with new freshmen, where you’re wondering, “Did I make the right choice? I’m not making friends. What is this all about?” We live in a bit of a world where, especially young people, think things happen instantly. “I’m going to make friends. I’m going to learn the new culture. I’m going to learn the new life. Everything’s going to happen in one day,” when it really doesn’t. It takes time.

We have to show ourselves a little bit of grace to say, “It’s going to take me some time.” How I get through that is really what you said earlier, which is finding some opportunities, finding some decisions to take some breaks, maybe not sit in my room and cry all day. Maybe I need to be able to get out and take some walks and give it a chance because, to me, college is not for everybody, but it is an amazing journey for a lot of young people these days.

I’ll share a little bit of my story because it’s also not linear for a lot of us. I came to the College of William and Mary to play golf. I was playing on the golf team. On paper, all that is like, “How wonderful.” Every day, I was completely lost. I remember going in the hallways and people being like, “What’s up?” Looking up to the ceiling and being completely confused by what they were saying. If I saw people a second time, they’d say again, Hey, and I would say nothing because I already saw you. Why should I say “Hey” again? That’s not part of my culture. People were like, “You’re so rude. Why don’t you say, Hey,” and I was like, “What?”

I decided to go back. I also, at home, had an older brother who struggled through heroin addiction. That wasn’t something that I wanted. He was not using anymore, but he was sick. He had hepatitis C and cirrhosis. I didn’t want to share this home trouble with anyone because I felt that that was going to make me be different. I was already feeling different enough. To me, it seemed like everybody was all happy and had it all figured out. They all went to dinner all together in a crowd, and there I was with my tray by myself. Eventually, I decided to go back home for sophomore year abroad. I went back to Paris as a year abroad and felt like a loser for doing that. My brother passed away when I was home that year.

I’m so sorry.

Thank you, but it was actually amazing because I was there with him. I also met my now husband, who was American in Paris. Eventually, I went back my junior year to William and Mary and graduated. It wasn’t like, and I played golf again and had the best experience. There’s no one way to do things. I just want to say for anyone who’s listening to this, young people, listen to your intuition. It takes time to find your tribe. Maybe it’s not a big crowd tribe. Maybe it’s just 1 or 2 people, but like you said, have grace for yourself. It takes time.

Listen to your intuition. It takes time to find your own tribe. Share on X

Social Media

So important. I appreciate you sharing all that. It’s funny how life works out. You have the twists and the turns. You go back home for some nurturing, and you end up meeting your husband back home, which is wonderful. It’s funny, too. I had the thought when you were talking about the crowd going and you feeling alone. I had the thought of like, that’s magnified because of social media. We have young people that not only are feeling that, but they’re also looking at their phone.

It seems like everybody is going to parties every night and having a grand old time. “I’m the only one who’s not.” I think your words are so important, Stephanie. I think that concept of, number one, statistically speaking, they’re not the only one. There are a lot of kids struggling out there. Number two, realizing this is going to take time. It’s not something that can be rushed. There are thousands of ways to make this work and figure their journey out. I appreciate you sharing yours. I think everyone’s got a story and how they got there.

What you just said about social media and basically seeing people’s highlight reels all day long also makes me think, I’m an actress. I actually have a highlight reel that I send to directors, or my agent sends to directors. When I look at it even me, I’m like, “Holy crap. Look at all this.”

You’re impressed by yourself.

By the work. I’m like, “That’s a lot.” I say that is actually 5% of the work that I do because the other 95% is the behind the scenes. It’s me in my living room doing an audition tape with my husband and not hearing back. It’s being rejected. It’s not having work since last November. You have no job. It’s oftentimes feeling like I’m going from rejection to rejection and failure to failure. Remembering that all of us are highlight reels is very different from the behind the scenes, from the reality. There’s something that helped me in the moments in my career, the dry moments. I heard a coach, I think it was a football coach, say, “Treat moments in life, like setbacks, as the athlete treats the offseason.” They’re not playing. They’re not in the season, but what are they doing? They’re working on their skills. They’re practicing. They’re becoming stronger.

Treat setbacks in life just like an athlete treats the off-season. Share on X

I remember when I heard that, I was like, “This is so great. I’m in my offseason season. What can I do to better myself?” It’s like, “Maybe I don’t know what, but what do I want to feel? What do I want to work towards?” You just take those steps to find somebody who can help you. Maybe it’s just taking on a new hobby, learning something new. I think that’s a very helpful thing to also keep moving and not just stay stuck.

I love that. I have to say, I use the word authentic in my introduction of you. You’re a very authentic person. I can tell when we talk, you’re very honest. You’re able to touch on things that a lot of people will just hide. To me, I think that one of the refreshing parts of that, Stephanie, is that we all have these sides to us. We all have these difficulties that we struggle with. Just because young people don’t necessarily see it, let’s say, through social media or through TVs and movies, it doesn’t mean that these people aren’t human beings and these people don’t have very similar struggles.

Getting Grounded

I appreciate you sharing all of that with us. I find your story fascinating and really helpful to hear about. I’m curious, when it comes to the different things that have helped you along the way in your journey, get to authenticity and get to feeling so grounded, lots of times people will reference mind-body wellness experiences, therapy, different types of assistance, maybe alternative assistance. I’m wondering, what have you found to be helpful in your own journey?

First, what pushed me to start my own journey was really a moment in my life where I felt so lousy, and it was related to my career, and it was the opposite of authenticity. I was so worried about what other people were going to think of my work not being good enough that it impacted not only my performance, but it impacted my relationships and my well-being. It was so bad. I felt so bad. My self-value was all tied into my career and how successful I was or not. That’s what pushed me to seek and search.

I think the beginning, it’s weird. I picked up this book by Deepak Chopra. I would have been embarrassed if anyone had seen me do that because I was like, “Self-help? What is that? I’m an athlete. I know how to compete. I’m in charge. I know how to basically take care of my mental game.” There is a book by Deepak Chopra, and it was called The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success: A Pocketbook Guide to Fulfilling Your Dreams (One Hour of Wisdom), but it was spiritual laws. There was something that grabbed me. When I read it, the way he spoke really hit home with me. That’s just me. I think it’s almost like dating, when you find a therapist, it’s like dating. You have to find your language. This spoke to me for the time that I was at. He spoke a lot about concepts that I had not really experienced, like gratitude and trust and surrendering and giving, but just being really conscious about doing these things every day.

I made myself flashcards every day before I went on the set. I focused on giving to everyone, and it was like maybe a compliment, maybe a smile. As I was doing that, it got me out of my own head, first of all. I started noticing other people on set that were, they were doing it. I was like, “You guys are superstars.” That’s why you’re super, from the actual movie stars to the people in the crew. That made me feel more connected to others. That was the beginning for me. I started a gratitude practice, which I have to this day. I use a five-minute journal. It’s every morning, finding three things that I’m grateful for. Even when we are not having good times in our life, you actually realize you can find things to be grateful for.

There’s another practice that I learned later, when something bad happens, my husband had a health scare, we were like, “Can we find three things to be grateful about this?” We did. All of a sudden, it shifted our perspective from “Why is this happening? We don’t want this to happen. Let’s shift our perspective.” Self-discovery came after that, which was journaling with specific questions to understand more of what filled my heart, what kind of life I wanted to live, what being authentic meant in the first place. If you had told me that before, I would have been like, “I have no idea.” It turns out a big part of being authentic for me is embracing not having it figured out and being okay with all the vulnerability.

That was really hard. It’s not an easy thing to be vulnerable. It also doesn’t mean that you’re going to talk to everybody and just empty your dirty laundry to everyone or whatnot. Even as a student, having the courage to raise your hand and say, “I don’t understand this,” or if somebody tells a joke and you don’t understand, being like, “I don’t get it.” You can practice being authentic by doing things that are a little uncomfortable, like being a little vulnerable, a little bit every day.

I love that you use that word practice because it really is a skill that you have to work at developing. I’m going to repeat something you mentioned because I feel like it should be on a t-shirt, embracing not having it figured out, like being okay with that. The bottom line is none of us have it figured out. We all walk around like we do. I think that that piece, for so many people, causes a lot of inner angst. Being able to get to that place where you could laugh at yourself a little bit and realize, “If I answer a question wrong, I still tried.”

There’s an attempt there. Maybe it was funny. Maybe the answer was funny, but I still tried. Not taking life super seriously and realizing that part of life, I would say a big part of life, is learning along the way and recognizing, we weren’t born knowing how to tie our shoes or how to brush our teeth or how to comb our hair. We had to learn all of those things. Why would this stuff be any different?

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Stephanie Szostak | Interactive Playbook

 

Also, we’d be insufferable if we had it all figured out.

That’s right. It would be definitely hard to be around. I appreciate you saying that, especially for young people. There is that notion of, like, for some reason, a lot of young people think they should have it all figured out. I think as you get further into adulthood, you really start to recognize, not only don’t I, but most people are on this journey.

I would even say that’s the beauty of life because, I think, if you’re young, or maybe it’s hard, but like from where we are, if I look back, I’m like, “What? I would have never imagined this.” I studied business. I never took an acting class until I was 29 years old. You don’t know what life is going to throw at you. You also don’t know what one way, that cliché of one door closes, another opens. I remember after college, I thought I was going to go into sports marketing. I interned at this big company. It was called Advantage International, now it’s something else, but it was one of the big three. I interned on a golf tournament in New Rochelle, had the best internship. I got along well with people, and I was convinced it was going to lead to a job. The big boss called me into his office and he said, “You were so great. We love you. Blah, blah, blah. I’m so sorry, but I’m not going to give you the job. You’re going to be bored, and I won’t be able to give you something better soon enough.”

Who knows if that was true or not. What I heard was, “We didn’t like you. You don’t belong here. I’m just making things up to make you feel fine about yourself or a little better about yourself.” I was devastated. I also felt like, “How could I be so wrong in my judgment, thinking I was going to get this job?” You know what? That job led me to do a marketing job at Chanel. That led me to become a model at 26, which I never would have even wanted to do, but somehow that happened. That led me to a theater class at 29, to discovering my passion in life. Life is so weird. It’s never too late to try something.

Awareness

That’s a good segue to this. I have to say, one of the things that I’ve so enjoyed about this and making some lists that go on here is there’s a part in here that talks about who you admire and why. One of the people that came out for me was similar to you. I have my own story. I didn’t know what I wanted to do until I was a junior in college and felt lost. I was a communications major. I hated it. I went to see my advisor, and my advisor, who was a sweetheart, turned out to be a family therapist. I thought I’d have a twenty-minute meeting. We had a three-hour meeting. She handed me her textbook of her class. I went home. I’m not a reader, but I went home, and I read that thing cover to cover, stayed up all night reading the book. I came to her class the next day, and I said, “Give me more.”

It was my own discovery of my passion and a recognition of, like, there was something about this topic that moved me. I really enjoyed it and wanted to know a lot more. I think that for young people, you can’t really plan that. I think a lot of young people, I had someone say to me yesterday, as a senior in high school, seventeen years old, says to me, “I don’t really know what I want to do.” I’m like, “That’s funny. I didn’t either at seventeen.” I think for a lot of young people, they think they’re supposed to. No one ever really says to them, “Here’s my story. I didn’t discover this until I was 29. I didn’t discover this until I was 25.” To take that pressure off, I think, is amazing.

You hear that word success. I use it because I want to redefine success. Success is finding your own life, is following your own path. It’s having also the awareness, when you hear your advisor say something, and you realize, “This is moving me, to say, I want more. Let me explore this.” That takes courage because to say, as a junior, “I’m going to shift from communications,” that takes courage.

 

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Stephanie Szostak | Interactive Playbook

 

SELF!SH

It did. I think that awareness is such a big part of that, to understand what passion is, which I think a lot of young people aren’t even really clear on. When you think about, “This is something I would consider doing for the next 50 years. I’d enjoy a lot of it,” there’s got to be some passion involved in that. Stephanie, let me shift back to this for a minute because I want to give our listeners an opportunity to hear about this. Tell us a little bit more about Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning, and you had mentioned before that there’s an app coming out, and I just want to hear more about where this has come from and where this is headed.

In a nutshell, Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning is a playbook for everything that elevates your mindset. There’s a workbook, the actual book that is an interactive workbook that you answer questions to, will help you discover the content to put in your own playbook. This content is meant, you will discover, I’m not telling you what to put in there, but you will arrive to stuff that revives confidence, joy, and meaning, hopefully. The app, this is the only reason I’m doing this, is because I needed this tool. It doesn’t exist anywhere. We have access to so much great information, whether through you, books, podcasts, even social media. We can have accounts that inspire us. I’m sure a lot of your listeners take screenshots on their phones of things that inspire them. I did the same. The problem was I never looked at those screenshots again, or they were scattered.

If you go to SelfishPlaybook.com, you can download the beta version of the app. I use it every day. It’s in beta because we’re still improving it. It’s basically, imagine your Instagram grid, but it’s private. It’s for you. In there, you’re going to put all the stuff that inspires you and the wisdom that you come across, things you’re grateful for, your goals, whatever it is you’re working on. You can create different grids or different playbooks. For me personally, I have one that is before I go on set. I know my son is like, you can have one before an interview, a job interview, or before a test. I have one that’s just about nature inspiration. Although I love to go in nature, and so I take pictures and I put them in there. If I watch it, you can hit play, and then it plays as a slideshow with music. There’s a science that shows that when we mix meaningful words, images, and music, we create an emotional experience, and that boosts our mood. It helps us learn and remember.

You could have one with your takeaways from Marc’s session in there and just watch them. What I try to do is watch it every morning before I go on social media, before I look at the news, before all the noise comes and hijacks my mindset and gets me in reactive mode. I take just three minutes to remind me of the stuff that serves me well.

Such a healthy habit. How often do we do things mindlessly? We pick our phone up right when we get up, and we look through our emails or social media. This is such a healthy habit to insert. I love the concept. It’s simple. It’s a tool. It’s with you all the time. You can grow it. You can grow it into multiple.

You can archive things that you’re like, “I don’t need this anymore.” You archive it.

Guest Nominee

I love it. Let me ask you, we had talked a bit offline, so the concept of Normalize it Forward is, obviously, we want to continue to have these conversations and be talking openly about the topics of mental health and wellness. Typically, I ask for a person to be nominated, an individual, a coworker, friend, or relative to be nominated. You were kind enough to nominate, I’m going to screw her name up, forgive me, Dr. Trina Clayeux from Give an Hour. Tell us a little bit about Dr. Trina.

Trina is the CEO of Give an Hour, which is a mental health organization that I came to know through A Million Little Things. What they do is they have a network of mental health professionals who give an hour of their time to people who need mental health resources. They also work with populations who’ve suffered from human-made trauma. They work a lot with veterans.

They will go to this base that they’re working with and assess the needs of the population and then give them education and skills. They also train peer support groups in those populations so that, when the work is done, there’s community, and somebody who’s maybe suffered from human-made trauma and feels now that they’re in a place where they can help somebody else can do that. I think a lot of us, we need mental health professionals, but we can also benefit from shared experience. Human to human.

We need mental health professionals, but we can also benefit from shared experience. Share on X

Episode Wrap-up

What a great organization. Thank you so much for nominating her. I look forward to reaching out and getting her on the show. Just want to thank you. Thank you for your time, your energy. I know you’re busy, and I appreciate you just making some space and talking to our listeners about all of these topics that are so important. For those of you that are looking to get an awesome read, please get out there and get Selfish: Step Into a Journey of Self-Discovery to Revive Confidence, Joy, and Meaning. It’s a fantastic book. I’ve learned a lot myself just from the half of what I’ve done in it so far. Get out there and take a look. Again, Stephanie, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for all you do. Thanks for having me, Marc.

Appreciate it. Have a wonderful rest of your day. You take care.

You too.

Thanks. Bye-bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Stephanie Szostak

Normalize It Forward - Marc Lehman | Stephanie Szostak | Interactive PlaybookStephanie Szostak, is a French-American actress, author, speaker, and Give an Hour ambassador. She speaks on being an outsider, overcoming failure, mental fitness, and living with authenticity. She is best known for her roles in The Devil Wears Prada, the ABC hit series A Million Little Things, Iron Man 3, and Dinner for Schmucks.

Szostak left her native France to study business and play Division 1 golf at The College of William & Mary. At twenty-nine years old, she left the corporate world behind to gave the acting world a try. Ten years into her career, Stephanie suffered from imposter syndrome which pushed her to address her mindset and develop a personal Playbook as a daily practice of mental fitness.

As part of her commitment to mental health, she wrote SELF!SH, offering a template for others to create their unique Playbook to cope, grow, and elevate their mindset, with half of her proceeds going to Give an Hour. Szostak is actively working on launching the SELF!SH app in Q4 of 2024.

 

 

 

Normalize It Forward | Jeff Calhoun | Student Athlete

 

Every student athlete is burdened with the task of balancing work and play. They are expected to perform well in their academics and in the court, and most of the time, this pressure takes a huge toll on their mental health. Marc Lehman explores the right way to provide support to student with former basketball player and current coach Jeff Calhoun. Together, they emphasize the importance of normalizing conversation about mental health among young adults and how they should connect with their elders and fellow students about it. Jeff also explains why taking moments of tranquility is extremely needed in this constantly interconnected world that does not seem to know how to take a break.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Pressures Of A Student Athlete With Jeff Calhoun

In this episode, we are welcoming Jeff Calhoun. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. Jeff, in your college years in the early ‘90s, I know you had played for UConn for your father for several years and sustained a number of injuries over time. I certainly want to chat with you about that in a bit. Jeff spent the last several years as Senior Vice President at Wheels Up, a private aviation company. In 2023, he co-founded a company. Jeff, what’s the name of the company?

REAL SLX.

It’s a sports, lifestyle, and experience club based in New York City. Jeff also does some work for ESPN as a spotter in the booth during college football games and is the assistant coach of the men’s basketball team at the University of Saint Joe’s. Personally, Jeff is married with three daughters. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. How are you?

I’m great. It’s good to see you again. We go back a long way.

Athletic Background

It’s lovely to reconnect and hear about all of the things that you’re doing. Jeff, I started this show to give young people the message of how important it is to talk about mental health and wellness and work at not avoiding the conversation. As you know, there’s so much going on with young people. Let’s go back for a minute to your younger and my younger days at UConn as an athlete coming up through the high school and the college system and your dad as a coach for many years. I want to ask, point of view-wise, what was that like many years ago being an athlete, both in high school and college? Are you able to capture that for us?

I was always very driven to advance my basketball career. I grew up in a basketball home and always had a dream of playing for my father. There’s a lot of pressure we put on ourselves to exceed. It’s one of those things. We all tend to focus on the losses, not the wins, which can be challenging, especially at that age. It hits kids at different places.

 

Normalize It Forward | Jeff Calhoun | Student Athlete

 

There was a pressure I put on myself for a long time where I knew I was one of the better players certainly in high school and things like that. As you get to a place like UConn, you’re not just playing, say, college sports but you’re playing the highest level of college sports. The struggles change, the pressure intensifies, and the expectations are difficult sometimes to meet. Balancing those can be a challenge.

Jeff, with the original son-coach combo, over the last few years, we were witnessing amazing things at UConn with Andrew and his dad. I can’t help but think as a fan, I’m excited for the year but I’m thinking about that word pressure. There’s an expectation here of wins and the National Championship. That couldn’t be a higher expectation for those players.

Pressure And Anxiety

It’s an immense pressure and expectation. I got to imagine for a young person, that pressure is above your pay grade at that age. It’s hard to understand. With NILs and everything, there’s a lot of finances involved as well. That’s an interesting segue. We talk about mental health and certainly on college campuses, anxiety and depression are at an all-time high. You’ve got three kiddos and have been through the college years with them as have I. It is a little scary as a parent to hear how intense it is.

Bridging those two points, for me, was always difficult. There was an added pressure certainly growing up in stores as my dad’s son. I was a recruited high school athlete. I had other options to go places similar to UConn. I knew going to UConn that it was going to be difficult. It’s funny. The things I thought would be a problem, maybe relationships with teammates and things like that didn’t end up being the problem. Things I didn’t see coming became a little bit more challenging for me.

As you look at what kids go through, I look back and feel very fortunate in some ways to not have had to deal with social media, some of the expectations, the internet, and all of these things where these kids can’t turn it off and they don’t have solace that I could find, whether it was going home, going to a friend’s house, or whatever it was. It could find a little bit of an oasis of calm and get away from it as best you can. Whether you’re an athlete or non-athlete student, there’s no escaping it. It never stops. It never gives you the ability to turn it off. I certainly have seen it with my kids how difficult it is.

You bring out a great point, which is peace in your day. We can certainly talk about how that happens. For lots of people, whether they’re young adults or older adults, we all need peace in our lives. Our phones are on all the time. We do have the option of turning them off. We just overlooked that option a lot. I try to point out to my patients, at least, the advantages of things that you can get on phones like meditative apps, for example. I can’t tell you how many college students I’ve worked with over the years who use Headspace, Calm, or other meditative apps. It’s great for kids to pop their earbuds in, listen to, and feel that peace. You’re right. It is hard, especially as an athlete. Athletes are constantly moving and always going.

It’s the pressure of a bad game or, “This isn’t going as well.” That’s typical. That happens to everybody, even the best players. Ray Allen and Donyell Marshall, who I played with, had their struggles. That’s not different for them than it was for me. There’s an audience out there who has a voice as to what’s going on with you and how you’re doing. It’s not always a kind or supportive voice. There are those people out there. I don’t want to overlook that but it’s easy to find the negativity.

It’s also easy for these kids to feel the pressure of it all, whether it’s the people they grew up with, their family, or the fans of the team. There are bumps in the road and you’re figuring it out. We live in a society where the results are expected and the criticism comes quickly. It’s challenging for these kids. As you added, also the money coming in on NIL. It’s dialed up where people feel more entitled. I’m sure kids feel much more pressure because they’re getting paid.

We currently live in an analysis society where results are expected and criticism comes quickly. Share on X

I have to imagine the non-athlete or the typical kid who goes to school. I’ve been consulting at a private school in the area and I’m watching as my high school students are filling apps out. They’re transitioning to go off to college. With the non-athlete typical college kid, there’s still a ton of pressure and competitiveness around what school they’re going to. The concept of, “Are you going to be happy there,” seems to get lost. I asked that question. It’s almost like that’s not asked of the students themselves. Is that something you noticed with your kids?

A hundred percent. None of my kids are athletes in college. I feel like that completely. It’s much more of a style-over-substance conversation because they’re seeing other kids go to this or that school. With your age and my age, we were in this bubble where you knew the kids in your town and maybe some people from other places but there wasn’t this pressure of the entire country of kids trying to get in and say, “Look where I got in,” and this battle to get into these competitive schools, which has only gotten worse.

I can’t imagine with all the information that’s out there. To your point about the apps that are on the phone, there’s so much good information that’s come out of this where kids are so much more informed than we were but there is another side to that coin, which is all that pressure and expectation. Sometimes kids feel that rather than saying, “It’s going to work out regardless of where it is because I’m going to make it work out. This ends up being the place that I was meant to be at. Maybe this is the better fit for me,” rather than, “This is the place that looks best on my Instagram posts that I’m going to.”

Self-Care

I’m curious about your thoughts on this. As I alluded to, anxiety and depressive rates across the country are at an all-time high. For parents like us, it’s terrifying to know that suicide is the second leading cause of death in this age bracket. I used to tell parents, “That’s reported. It’s probably the number one because a lot of times it goes unreported.” It’s always terrifying to me when I hear stories like that but unfortunately, every few months, I hear about another one.

It leads me to think, what can parents and kids do? Beyond seeing a therapist, what are those things kids can do tangibly on campus that might be helpful? One of those big topic areas is self-care. Self-care is a phrase that’s been thrown around a lot in the last many years. I’m curious. When you think of self-care, Jeff, whether it’s your girls, yourself, or other people that you know, what does self-care mean to you?

Primarily for me, what first jumped into my mind when you asked the question is certainly when I was their age, I don’t think it was as accepted or normalized to talk about the way how you were doing that way. Not very loving parents couldn’t ask for better parents but I grew up in a home where this was probably me putting it on myself but being tough. Was this ideal that I tried to live up to? I tried to be as tough as possible. To me, I thought tough was like, “Look what I can take.” I’ve since learned that that’s not a way to describe toughness.

Toughness comes in a lot of forms, in much better and healthier forms than the way I had defined it. It’s being able to primarily recognize the way you’re feeling and finding a community, a therapist, friends, family, or a community where you feel comfortable talking about the way you’re feeling and being able to say, “I’m not doing great. I’m going through this or reaching out.” That’s a big piece of it. Getting back to what we had talked about previously, because the world doesn’t stop and it’s not, you don’t have the ability to turn it off. It’s finding that time to turn it off, settle, be at peace, and find some tranquility in this. No matter where you are, it’s always on and buzzing.

Find the time to turn off everything around you and be at peace. Find some tranquility in today’s chaos no matter where you are. Share on X

You made two good points I want to highlight. One is that conversation. It is the crux of why I created this show of people having conversations about mental health issues, whether it’s talked about in those terms or kids are talking about stress. I find it unbelievable that when I talk to college kids and say, “Have you talked to any of your friends about how your classes are going.” They’re like, “No.” No kids do that in college. Kids don’t talk about class.

There’s this huge chunk of stuff going on in kids’ worlds with academics that no one talks about with each other. Kids can feel a ton of pressure from classes not going well. They’re sitting with that alone. The classic freshman who thinks they studied enough to fail their first exam. They don’t tell anybody but they double down in their mind and they’re like, “I’ll do better on the next one.” That’s a formula for anxiety.

Normalizing the conversation and for kids to understand that there are adults, whether it be you and I, RAs, RDs, coaches, assistant coaches, teachers, or other professionals on campus that would understand, lend an ear, sit down, and have a conversation. It may not be able to help them solve things but they’ll certainly listen and be able to offer that to them.

Your second point, which is spot on, is for kids to find a place and a time in their schedule regularly to create some peace for themselves. As strange as it sounds, if I’m seeing patients all day long, sometimes I’ll go and have lunch at a park nearby to clear my head and get out of the office. Certainly, exercise is a big one for me in terms of clearing my head and getting the clutter out. As you can imagine, I might hear a few things during the week.

I’m sure for yourself as well, everybody’s got these busy schedules. Why should college kids’ lives be any different with creating that peace? I encourage kids regularly to find that, whatever it looks like for them. For some kids, working out is great. Other kids hate it. It’s finding something else that they might enjoy to help bring that stress level down. It’s a great suggestion.

I wish the kids knew. I had a conversation with one of my daughters about something like this, where it’s one of those things. It’s the burden of youth, thinking that if you’re going through it, you’re the only one who’s going through it. I’m trying to have that conversation with my daughter, “I promise you if you’re feeling this way, almost everybody around you is feeling this way too. Sometimes it’s not easy and I get that but sometimes, be pleasantly surprised if you had the vulnerability to tell somebody else that this is how you were feeling.”

A lesson I learned later in life is sharing the way I was feeling about things and finding that these people that I was very close to were going through the same thing on a parallel path. Neither one of us had ever talked to each other about it but finding that other person and finding that me telling my story helped them and me. Also, building a community of people who do listen, are there for you, and can understand what you’re going through.

Statistics support what you’re saying. One of the advantages in some ways to the majority of kids being anxious is you can say to yourself, “I’m not in the minority anymore. There’s a lot of kids out there.” It’s super good advice. It’s important for kids to hear that and realize it. You used the keyword vulnerability. If you can lean into that conversation a bit and say, “Have you been stressed about this class? I’ve been super stressed about it,” the conversation flows. I’m amazed at how many kids get to school, are super homesick, and never tell anybody around them how homesick they are. They’ll go to social media but they won’t tell kids around them. I joke, “Kids, you’d have to come from a pretty awful home to not miss something.”

Here’s a true story. My dorm room looked at my high school. I could see my high school from my dorm room window. My dad’s office was maybe a quarter mile from my dorm room. I saw him every day. My parents live 6 miles away. I was homesick. If I can be homesick, anybody can be homesick.

Memorable Mentors

That’s funny, Jeff. That’s an interesting transition to my next question for you. For so many adults I talked to, in our college and high school years, we had our mentors and people who would make suggestions. Maybe we’re able to, years later, look back and go, “That was helpful. That person had an impact on me.” It could have been someone that you least suspected in high school, a club coach of something, a friend’s parent, or certainly an advisor. Also, many coaches over the years with athletics, teachers, and all sorts of adults. I’m curious. As you look back as an adult, are you able to pull out one of those statements that somebody made to you that had an impact?

A couple of people but one specifically. We had our academic advisor for the basketball team at UConn. He was a professor of Biology at UConn. His name was Ted Taigen. He was a pretty well-known guy on campus. He’s a great person. As I battled through injuries, it put me in a pretty good depression, which I didn’t know I think what it was. I woke up one day and realized that I was not in a great place. I was having a tough time focusing on school.

He came to me and said that he noticed what was happening to me and lent an ear. He told me at the time, “You don’t have to stay in school if you don’t want to go to college and if that isn’t for you.” It wasn’t the path I ended up choosing but in a bigger conversation, those statements gave me the freedom to realize I don’t have to do all of this. If I do this, it’s because I want to do it and it’s right.

It was knowing that I didn’t have to stay on this path, people were there to help me, and people got it when I thought what I was going through was me. I had built a bubble. We talked about, “I’m the only one going through this. Nobody understands what it’s like to be me and what I’m going through.” “No, everybody has their challenges here and everybody’s dealing with something.” It helped me.

That’s an awesome story. Good for Ted for taking the steps to do that. I feel like for adults, that’s also a vulnerable decision like, “Do I say something? Do I not?” Not necessarily realizing how big of an impact that can have on a kid to say, “I see something’s going on. Here are some ideas and suggestions.” I like the way you put that. It sounds like it was a pivotal moment during your college years. Thank you for telling us that story, Jeff. I appreciate it.

Parenting Challenges

The life of a young person is hard. Equally, parenting young people has become challenging. When it comes to adding in things like mental health but even more generally, pressure, one of the hardest parts that I’ve experienced as a parent is seeing my kid feel that pressure and not being able to relieve it for them. How would you describe one of the challenges that you’ve experienced as a parent over the last many years of young adulthood?

It’s very similar to you. It’s seeing the anxiety that my kids have felt. The three girls each had their very unique challenges. I have felt it for very different reasons in very different ways. I realized that there’s a gap, not just in age but in technology and the world. It’s changed so much. What the world changed from my parents to me is not a fraction of what it’s changed from me to my girls.

 

Normalize It Forward | Jeff Calhoun | Student Athlete

 

With all of that, I was feeling, I don’t want to say helpless but how much can I identify with what they’re going through? I do think having gone through it myself, having maybe the difference between our parents and our generation, was a little bit more understanding of these issues. We all came out of growing up maybe a little bit more in tune with mental health, anxiety, and the challenges. I’ve always made a conscious effort to not forget what it’s like to be their age because it’s hard.

For me, it’s always been important to let them know that I certainly don’t see myself as a finished product. They see me as somebody who has it together, has a job, has had some success, and has done things in their life but I wasn’t always that way. I let myself be vulnerable enough to tell them, “I made mistakes that you haven’t made. I made a lot worse mistakes than you made. I was in a very similar situation to you when I was your age.” I was letting them have the understanding that we’re not the adults who have all the answers and we were also like them.

Advice For Student Athletes

We’re human beings. We make mistakes. For you to be able to be that open and honest with your kids, I’m sure opens doors for them to be able to be open and honest back, Jeff. That’s smart. Let me ask you this. I want to put you on the spot for one second. My audience is not only parents but also students. I’m thinking that there will be athletes who might be reading this conversation. I know that in athletics, not only do you have several coaches but you have a whole bunch of support staff. You got your teammates. I’m wondering. Do you have any words of advice for an athlete going through it? Let’s say they’re feeling depressed or anxious. They’re not themselves. Any words of advice?

 

Normalize It Forward | Jeff Calhoun | Student Athlete

 

Reach out. Coaching to your point, there are enough people, hopefully on a staff, on a code or in support. There are resources for you. The vast majority of people are in coaching. I do it for free. I volunteer at Saint Joe’s. I love being around basketball but more importantly, I love being around the guys that I coach. The reward is the relationship.

For me, it’s being trusted by one of the kids who play for us with the way they’re feeling with what they’re going through. Most people are involved in this because they love being around kids and they want to help kids. Know that that’s there for you. To be vulnerable is not easy. I get it but by and large, you’ll always be pleasantly surprised when you do the way people will receive it. For some reason, you’re at a place where you don’t feel supported and you don’t have those people. I’d probably tell you you’re at the wrong place. There are not many of those out there but they do exist. If you find that, then it’s probably not the right place and you should leave.

If you are at a place where you do not feel supported, it is probably not the right place for you. Share on X

Good suggestion. How’s the team looking in 2024?

We’re going to be good. We’ve been very fortunate. We’ve had good players and kids. We started with fifteen freshmen. It was a school that didn’t have men. In the first year, they had men. We had a team. Within three years, we had the number one team in the country. We’ve had good success. We’re trying to build on it but it should be an interesting year.

Episode Wrap-up

Good luck to them and you. One of the unique parts of this show is we ask for the conversation to continue. You and I will continue to talk offline about individuals who perhaps might be good guests in the future, Jeff. I want to thank you for your time. I know you’re super busy. I appreciate you making some space and allowing us to reconnect about such an important topic. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Jeff, you have a great day. We’ll talk soon.

You too.

Important Links

 

 

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College Students

 

College students have to juggle a lot of responsibilities every single day, and these go even beyond schoolwork. Some have extracurricular duties, while others have side hustles to focus on. Such hectic schedules push them to set aside self-care, and their mental health suffers the most. Marc Lehman sits down with actress Spencer Ganus, who guides high schoolers through college admissions. Talking all about her wellness blog and her own college experience, she discusses how young adults should handle the pressures of social media and the adverse impact of the pandemic. Spencer also explores the importance of time management, self-care, and being open-minded to exploring different passions.

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

 

Mental Health Advice For College Students With Spencer Ganus

Welcome Spencer Lacey Ganus, who is an actress and voice actress. Two of her roles that she’s known for are through Comedy Central’s South Park as Ike as well as Elsa in Frozen. We are particularly interested in talking to Spencer about Spencer’s wellness and lifestyle, social media blog that she runs. Spencer, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.

Spencer Wellness

Thanks for being here with us. We’d love to touch on a number of different things, but Spencer, and in many ways, love to hear a little bit more about Spencer Wellness, your blog. It sounds so fascinating.

It sounds great. I grew up in a very wellness-oriented family. I have been drinking protein smoothies since I was like three years old, and I was raised in more of a health-conscious, wellness-oriented household, which inspired me to want to live my own healthier life. That particularly came to fruition when I was in college and as I was graduating college and living on my own for the first time, on my terms, when I had the opportunity to either continue on the path that I was so lucky to be raised on or do the thing that a lot of people do in their twenties, which does not prioritize their wellness maybe prioritize other things in their life.

I was excited about the opportunity to take life into my own hands and continue going down a path that I thought was intentional. In doing that, I decided to share my journey. It started by posting recipes that were healthy or desserts or smoothies or fun things I was making in the kitchen, honestly over the pandemic when I had some extra time. It has since evolved into a much more balanced lifestyle. It’s now what I like to talk about, and the biggest value that I embody with wellness is finding realistic wellness and balance as a young person. I’m not giving up eating cake and like, I have a whole cake business, ironically enough, that I post about on my wellness Instagram page. That’s not healthy at all.

 

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College Students

 

It’s like real butter, real sugar, all the things but it’s a creative outlet for me. I love being able to think for people and beyond decorating it, it embodies my value of having your cake and eating it too, and balance and living in a way that encompasses wellness and intentionality, but also not giving up the things that you love because I would be happy doing that for the rest of my life, and I don’t think promoting that is positive.

That’s where the idea for my blog came about. I have an Instagram page called @HealthyWithSpence, and then on my TikTok, I started posting more. It’s a little sillier. My Instagram is probably more intentional with my content, but it’s been super fun. I have had some incredible opportunities to work with brands that I align with, whether it’s clothing brands and workout clothes, food brands, or going to some fun events in Los Angeles where there’s so much happening in the world of social media. I have made so many friends and amazing, real, authentic connections through this blog with other girls and boys and everyone who shares the same values as me. It’s fun.

Intentionality

I have 1,000 questions for you. First of all, your cakes are amazing. You are very talented. They are beautiful. I love how you said that. The word “intentional” is such an important word. As a therapist, I run a virtual practice called U Are Heard, and and my therapists, I see students all over the country with mental health needs I get asked all the time What is the hang-up of getting assistance from a young person getting help when they need it?

I find myself saying that all the time to young people If you need assistance, get it. If you know all that stuff. The intentional piece is so important because young individuals often aren’t very intentional, and they go with the flow, even if the flow isn’t healthy and I don’t mean to judge when I say that. I mean that sometimes that path takes a person down a difficult trail. I have seen students, for example, not getting enough rest. I have seen students not get any physical activity. I have seen students missing classes regularly, and you know where that’s headed but being intentional is such a big part of specifically directing your journey and pushing it in a positive fashion.

I graduated from Duke University a few years ago, and especially at a school like Duke that had so many incredible opportunities, it was easy to not rest. It was easy to say yes to so many things when you have multiple interests, like someone the way that I do. There were times when I was going down that path, I wasn’t the kid missing class, but I was the kid missing sleep to go to class and to go to other things, and my mental health fluctuated, whether it was being anxious or stressed or overwhelmed, and not being in my best functioning, mentally healthy headspace because of things like lack of sleep or even my eating habits, too. Throughout college, fluctuated. It was in the post-grad years that I feel I have been able to cultivate a lot more mindfulness and intentionality, given that it’s always a journey. We are always growing, but I understand, and that was and still is me as a young twenty-something post-grad student, for sure.

Self-Care

It is a journey. Let me ask you about an interesting topic, self-care. When you think about the broad topic of self-care, about eating, sleeping, exercise, but it’s when I say the phrase self-care, what do you think of?

I think of all those things, and I think of it even more so encompassing what fulfills me. For me, self-care isn’t the physical eating, sleeping, drinking enough water, taking care of myself in that way, but it’s in the way that I have gotten to know myself, where for me, self-care at times is being alone, recharging, taking time by myself and recharging that social battery, but I’m extroverted and for me, more often than not, self-care looks like cultivating a group of friends who recharge and fill me and making time in my schedule to see my friends but it sounds so silly, but when you are busy and you might have been careers the way that I am, whether it’s with my relationship or with my friends.

Self-care is not just about addressing the needs of your body. It is also about being alone and recharging yourself. Share on X

I feel like blocking that time in my schedule. It’s something that is an act of self-care. Finding a balance between my entrepreneurial freelance artist life and having a normal life of seeing my friends on the weekend, most of them do have 9:00 to 5:00s. That’s been a huge piece of self-care that when I sacrifice too much social time or too much alone time, I think my mental health suffers from that.

For me, self-care is building a life of things that fulfill me, whether it’s time alone, or time with friends, and then personally, creativity is a huge value of mine as a creative person, whether it’s making cakes like you said, or writing, or I’m a dancer as well, and moving my body is something that fulfills me, too. For me, self-care is not about eating, sleeping, or drinking water, but it’s about booking a dance class and going for a walk.

Doing something physically. Moving my body is important to me. Often, that is coupled with something creative that gets my brain stimulated in a way that’s fulfilling beyond what I do for work. The last piece of self-care for me is grounding and being in nature. Getting sunshine is important for my mental health, and for having met gray in Los Angeles. I will go touch some grass anyway.

Connecting with nature, I’m so lucky to live close to the beach-ish, and for me, going to see the ocean and being in nature, seeing trees, getting fresh air is something as simple as going on my patio for even ten minutes in the middle of my workday. Self-care for me encompasses beyond the physical things you think of when you think of wellness and well-being, but also building that life of things that you know recharge you and fulfill you, whether it’s friends, alone time, being in nature, creativity, or moving your body.

You’ve learned a lot over your teen years and developed into a person who knows what she needs and like you said, life is a journey. It doesn’t matter. Are you continuing to learn all of that? From young adults, I want to highlight what you said, recognizing what you need and so for you, it’s creativity for someone else, it may be a workout, but recognizing you as a person and saying, “What is it that Marc needs? What is it that Spencer needs?” Making it happen. Even if it’s simply getting outside, getting some fresh air, getting a walk in, and recognizing, “If I don’t do this somehow I’m impacting myself negatively.”

It builds up, and you don’t have time for certain things, and then you realize. For me, like even something as simple as “I haven’t seen a friend all week. Why am I sad? Why am I feeling lonely?” I will call a friend up. If I can’t see them in person, like make a connection with someone if that’s what feeds me and that’s what I need. Do it. Take the time and make the time to do it, but sometimes it’s easier said than done, and at all the different times your needs can change as you said. For me, my needs changed too, and checking in with yourself and being on that journey, figuring out what you need at this present moment is another factor of self-care. It’s like spending time with yourself and getting to know yourself what you need and what’s best for you in the present moment.

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College Students

Young Adult And Mental Health

You had an interesting age in that you are out of college, but I can still consider you a young adult twenties and approaching, getting into your career spreading your wings, and getting into that age bracket where people start thinking about relationships and families and all that stuff and I’m wondering, when you think about young adults and the mental health of young adults, so anxiety and depression in particular. Anxiety and depression right now are at an all-time high. Anxiety in young adults and depression are the statistics that are through the roof. I’m wondering, when you hear me say that, why do you think that is?

Being a young adult and someone who also has dealt with and still sometimes deals with anxiety, I go to therapy too, and I have, but a lot of time working on myself to be the stable person that I am, but everyone has their days too. Someone who’s not an outsider and what you are talking about. There are so many factors, and I hate to say it because I work in social media, but I do think a factor not be factored, but a factor is the age of technology and the accessibility we have to seeing what we may not have, comparing ourselves to other people, comparing ourselves to even, for me, past versions of myself that I have posted about online that I have to live up to. That’s a very niche thing for me, but that affects my mental health, is living up to the standard that I have seen created online of this person who embodies wellness. What if I’m not feeling so hot one day?

Suddenly, if I am not embodying this thing that I’m promoting am I inauthentic and spiraling in that way? Technology has a big effect on all of us in some capacity, positively, connecting us to incredible sources of information and being a creative outlet. I have seen more positives than negatives from social media, being in the field that I’m in intentionally, but I do think it’s taken a toll on my mental health many times, I do think the pandemic also had an effect on us.

I didn’t walk across the stage when I graduated from Duke and all my hard work. I got lucky that I even sat at a graduation, but we sat in masks, 6 feet apart, on the football field. They never called my name. They never shook anyone’s hand, and my diploma was mailed to me. It didn’t feel like the same level of gratification in a silly way for all the work that I put in, and that was a big bummer and that’s not to say that your anxiety is a product of a particular event like that.

Living in the age of the pandemic, post-pandemic, combined with technology, combined with my generation especially, there’s a shift with Gen Z of people who are more entrepreneurial, and it’s more acceptable to be a full-time freelancers, to be balancing multiple jobs, to have a side hustle. It’s a common language among my generation, and as someone who does have a lot of different jobs, I’m busy. I have my hands in a lot of different things, and it’s like maybe it’s my circle in Los Angeles being a more artist and entrepreneurial-oriented city, but in this city, there’s a lot of pressure to have more than a 9:00 to 5:00. If you think you have a 9:00 to 5:00, that’s all you have a 9:00 to 5:00. Do you have a side hustle? What do you do with your free time? Do you have a hobby? You don’t have a hobby? It’s like you go from 9:00 to 5:00, or what else do you do? At this age, with, again, social media, there’s this pressure to monetize your free time, monetize all your hobbies.

The age of the post-pandemic made Generation Z more entrepreneurial. It is now more acceptable to be a full-time freelancer, balance multiple jobs, or have a side hustle. Share on X

I have put this pressure on myself, and that’s been a huge contributing factor to my anxiety, is that standard? I have stopped for myself the pressure I feel from my generation to constantly be achieving and doing and leveling up, and it’s positive and if it’s not taken too far, and when it’s taken too far, it can take a toll on mental health. That’s why my generation is suffering.

College Admission

I would agree. As a therapist, one of the things that I see is the measuring stick has become social media. Right now, with young people, social media doesn’t exist. You were compared to the people next to you, the people you heard about. Now, you are compared to 100 million of your closest friends on social media. It’s never enough. Someone could be working a zillion hours, and in some ways, it feels like, why aren’t you working a zillion and one? When you look at the definition of mental health or happiness, that takes away from your happiness. You have to go. I see it. It’s funny. I see it mentioned, Duke. I see it when kids are applying to college.

I work in college admissions, one of my million jobs, and let me tell you. It’s crazy.

Essay writing and all that stuff. For me, 4.0 used to be the highest. Then it went up to 4.3, and now it’s 4.6. I’m like, what does it stop at? At some point, you say, “This is a person who’s intelligent, obviously doing well in school, but they are not at the top of their game and everybody seems to be trying to get to that top,” which is a pressure cooker.

The funniest part is when kids get out of college, and you probably know this to be true because you’ve been out for a while now, everybody has a degree. When you get out of college, you are sitting in a room. Everyone’s got no one cares at that point. Are you this or that? What they care about is what kind of person you are, what you bring to the table, and how hard you can work. Social media has been harsh. COVID has been equally harsh. It makes me sad to hear that he didn’t get to walk across the stage because everybody who works hard like that deserves that. They deserve that attention.

That’s a silly thing to bring up as a thing that I don’t think cuts it off every day but that’s like a microcosm of college being like everything about the hard work and everything about the product, and the college admissions process too. Working with these students, there’s pressure. Do you think it’s the parents often? It’s the students even putting the pressure on themselves, and the friends leveling up next to them? “My friend got in here, and why didn’t I get in?” It’s breaking up friendships.

The list could go on about the college admissions process and I feel like I’m grateful. I work with a company that has strong, amazing values, and that’s why I work in this space. It’s because we do a lot of free essay reviews and amazing resources we offer for people who are underprivileged and I work with students on scholarships as well. The only reason I get excited to work in this space is to feel like I’m making an impact, even if it’s on a small scale, with students who either would have access to these resources and also students who wouldn’t and that’s helpful for me as someone who always wants to align with work that is aligned to my values, because that’s part of living intentionally. Even for you to be able to have a conversation with someone a couple of years younger and remind them, “You are supposed to be pursuing this to be happy.” That’s supposed to be part of the process. Let’s not lose that. I could see you doing that and doing a good job of that. I love you hearing all that.

Thank you. Teaching at a school right now in person, is my first day. There are big kids, and they are all awesome. I get to teach in person. It’s such a treat. I’m like, “The connectivity versus Zoom. It’s not the same.”

How old are the kids you are teaching?

These are mostly rising juniors and some seniors, so all college prep work, but a little bit more broad writing skills and writing a personal statement and what it’s like to learn to express yourself more in an essay over the course of the next two and a half weeks. We’ll be working together. It’s a pretty long time to get to know each other and hopefully make a real impact on their writing abilities and their lives.

Time management

Another area I wanted to ask you about in terms of wellness that goes, it’s not talked about nearly enough, is time management and I always feel like the students that I work with going into college, most of them don’t use calendars. Most of them don’t even use email, believe it or not. To introduce them to that and then to link it to, “The more management you use, I believe the more you can drive your anxiety down because you know what’s coming.” I’m curious, what are your thoughts about time management? Has that impacted you?

I agree with what you said about minimizing anxiety. If not for my calendar I use the iCal app because it’s on my phone and my computer I cannot imagine what I would do without my calendar. Having as many jobs as I do and still trying to have a social life and still trying to take time for myself, I could truly not function without my calendar and honestly, without reminders, I feel like I’m the person where, even talking to you about scheduling the Zoom interview, if I don’t respond to a text right away and I open it, I’ve forgotten about it and that’s the truth about myself.

The more you get to know yourself, the more you know what tools you need. For me, I use my notes app religiously. I always have a to-do list, and I check things off every day. What I’m doing if I didn’t have my notes app where I was writing to-do lists every day, I would not know what I was doing. If I wasn’t able to mark emails as flagged or unread texts that I haven’t responded to yet because I’m in the middle of something, I wouldn’t get to it. Some people are better at micromanaging little things like that, and maybe they have more capacity in their brain to multitask in that way, the way that I don’t but learning about myself, I have learned what systems help me with these little things.

The more you know yourself, the more you know what tools you need. Share on X

Those little things are a huge contributor to overall time management when you feel more organized and you are able to block your time and your week, that’s when you have the time for self-care. That’s the only way I could function doing all of these different types of endeavors that I’m doing. I have even imparted some of this idea of organization to the students that I work with. I use organizational platforms. It’s like an online software that is like a Google Drive meets the Notes app shared feature, like a co-work space. Monday is similar, or Asana like all those kinds of workspaces, but I use Notion to help my students stay organized. They always have a to-do list and know what our Zoom link is and when we are meeting. They know what their homework is and what my homework is for them. Organizational systems like that for all of my businesses to manage my time are crucial.

It’s a work in progress for me. I’m still a work in progress in every way, and there are days when I do get stuck scrolling. Sometimes I start looking for inspiration and then I end up on my phone for an hour, and I’m like, “That wasn’t part of the plan. Let’s readjust.” Time management is key for efficiency, trying to do multiple things, and minimizing your anxiety. To do those things efficiently you have to have time management.

You juggle a lot. You are an excellent example of that and as you mentioned, the entrepreneurial attitude of young adults nowadays, there are many more people out there doing that and doing all things.

In college too, I can’t imagine not having a calendar in college, because it’s the first time that your class schedule isn’t eight to three. Your parents drop you off and pick you up, or you drive yourself and drive yourself home, maybe a senior year of high school. In college, I was part of two dance groups. I was the vice president of the Buddhist Meditation Club. I did like everything I could do on campus because I was like,” I wanted to soak up the juice. I wanted to take advantage of my time there.”

If I wanted to go to a party with my friends but I had a midterm due, I wouldn’t have known my midterm was due if it wasn’t on my calendar. Finding those organizational structures sooner rather than later, in high school, I even had a calendar. I had a crazy agenda. My mom, luckily, helped me in doing that and was like, “Make your doctor appointments.” I made my appointments and I could drive when I had races. Those are the things that I was lucky to learn from a young age, learning sooner rather than later if you are learning for the first time in college, is a little tricky, but it’s still better to learn in college than when you are 25, you get the real job.

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College Students

First Weeks At School

I don’t know if you remember your first couple of weeks at school. Do you remember your first couple of weeks? What was one of your big surprises that you got to school and you were like, “I didn’t see this coming?”

I did an amazing pre-orientation program that Duke offered. It was an arts camp. It was like a student. All my counselors were older students. It was all freshmen incoming, and they divided us into small groups. I had this opportunity to get eased into the college experience, and that was the first surprise. I thought I was going to show up and it was going to be first-day-of-school vibes, where I’m a little fish in a massive pond, where I knew nobody. I flew across the country. My parents said bye to me at the airport. I got on a plane and went from Los Angeles to Durham, North Carolina very differently. I didn’t know anybody, and I was at first surprised with how excited I was and not anxious, as someone who usually does run anxious for new experiences out of my control.

Instantly found people who I shared values within this art space, who I could connect with over things like music, dance, and acting. It felt like a safe space and that was a very unique college experience. A unique entry to college that not all students are offered, but that a lot of schools have orientation programs to ease freshmen. I recommend taking advantage of that and finding people who you vibe with, whether it’s through a particular part of that orientation like maybe there’s a part of the orientation that’s geared towards a particular interest of yours. Maybe you play a sport, and there’s a sports orientation.

Going to the orientation with what might be your people not to say they are going to be your best friends. I didn’t even end up staying friends with most people from my program, but I did find some of my best friends through that program. It was surprising off the bat to find people across the country amidst this massive environment. We are expected to feel so anxious and isolated, but I found people who I shared things with. Looking ahead, it was surprising to see I didn’t say that about all of them. It was like I had my freshman week friends, and some of them were freshman week friends.

I would say hi to all and that was it.  I was surprised and I wish I had been a bit less presumptuous of expecting to feel a negative way and a little more open-minded to knowing I might not feel anxious at all. I could get there and feel instantly comfortable and not feel like I wanted to run to the bathroom and throw up. That was not something that I ever thought would be an easy transition, and had I been more open-minded, the plane ride over would have been a little bearing.

Advice For Incoming College Students

That brings me to the last question I want to ask you. If you are talking directly to an incoming student, an incoming college kid, eighteen years old. All sorts of thoughts. Do you have a piece of advice?

Something that people told me that I didn’t believe when I got to college and this is specific but your major doesn’t determine everything, and what you choose to study does not determine your career. If you change your major, it’s not the end of the world. Every school has different protocols for certain applications that require you to pick majors in certain programs or are more competitive than others. Not saying it’s easy to go from being an engineer to an English major.

I do think that the pressure I felt to make a 5-year plan when I was 17 years old was pressure that I never needed to feel, with anxiety that I never needed to feel. I graduated. I studied literature, cultural studies, and philosophy. I co-published a book on the study of ethics, and now I’m working as an actress, a dancer, and a college counselor. I’m on your show. I’m doing all of these random careers that, frankly, mine are using my brain, talking to people, and learning to express myself. They have nothing to do.

Sorry, Mom and Dad, but for me the specific answer would be don’t stress so much about your major, or your five-year plan, all those little things are so insignificant in the grand scheme of your life. If you are going into a field that is technical, like learning how to do computer science to be a software engineer, try it, and if it doesn’t work out, you don’t have to do that for the rest of your life. You are not married to that but be open-minded with what you want to study.

Take it on a little bit of a larger scale generally being open-minded and knowing that things are going to work out, and things are not going to work out. You might think you met your husband during the first week of school, and then you realize you don’t think you like him at all. I think being open-minded, if I could go back in time and give my younger self advice, would be to roll with the punches and relax a little bit more. Enjoy it. People say it’s the best time of your life. Take those classes that you are like, “Maybe I want to study this. Maybe I don’t.” If it’s not that serious, if you don’t have it all figured out and that’s something I felt like I had to have a lot of things figured out because suddenly I wasn’t a kid anymore I was living across the country, and the pressure from the investment of the money and the investment of all the things that they make college out to be in the movies.

Enjoying it and remembering it’s supposed to be fun and educational. The last thing I will say is to take the opportunity to use college as your growth journey, battlefield, or frankly, you are going to get hit with a lot of things but using it not as a place to learn but as a trade school opportunity, but as a chance to learn about yourself and to grow. If the best thing out of college you get, besides your degree, is people skills and learning about yourself, then it was a successful college experience.

Use college not just as a place to learn but also as a chance to learn about yourself and to grow. Share on X

It’s not bad. It’s great advice. In many ways, you are saying, “Be willing to try new things,” and, “Attend new classes. Expand your horizons.” Most kids are going to school in different areas. Embrace that a bit. It sounds like a nice journey, and as you said, honestly, no one has a 100% lovely journey through college. There’s going to be tough days.

I call my parents more than once.

Episode Wrap-Up

In many ways, that’s typical. I always tell kids, I’m like, “You’d have to have a pretty awful house to not miss it at all when you go to college.” You are going to have some of that but the opportunity to open their world up in those ways is immense. I appreciate your time, Spencer. You are fantastic.

I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much. You’re awesome.  I love your mission and everything you stand for, so I’m happy to support you.

Can I put you on the spot for one second? Part of what we are doing in the show is asking people that we interview to nominate another individual so that we can continue the conversation. You need to talk about wellness, and I didn’t know if you had a friend, a co-worker, a relative, or someone.

Not to keep it in the family, but my mom nominated me. I have so much admiration for how she raised me, and the intentionality I live with is such a byproduct of the house that I was raised in by both my parents. My brother is someone who embodies the same spirit. He launched a business called Collegiate Mind Mastery. That’s all about baseball players going on the professional track who are any age, from elementary through high school, and even some college students he’s working with now too. All about everything and what it takes to be a collegiate athlete from mindset and mental health to physical health and nutrition and everything and he built such an amazing brand and program with that. He’s such an asset to chat with.

That would be great. What’s your brother’s first name?

His name is Tyler Ganus. His Instagram is @TylerGanus. If you want to check it out there. He’s a whole brand there too, but maybe that would be a nice conversation.

I appreciate you nominating him. I will reach out. Spencer, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been amazing. I love the fact that you represent both college as well as post-college, and you’ve been very honest about things. I want to just make a point of saying this there are so many times that I will interview someone and they give me this glossed-up version of everything is perfect, and we all know that the normalcy of life is that we have our ups and downs. The way you put it out there, that just works. Thanks again.

I’m so glad. Thank you so much for your time. You are not an awesome interviewer. I appreciate it and good luck with your show. Hopefully, you get in touch with my brother.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Take care. Have a good rest of your day.

 

Important Links

 

About Spencer Lacey Ganus

Normalize It Forward | Spencer Ganus | College StudentsSpencer Lacey Ganus , who is an actress and voice actress. 2 of her roles She’s best known for are the Comedy Central television series, South Park As Ike as, as well as teen Elsa in frozen.

We are particularly interested to talk about healthy with Spence wellness and lifestyle social media blog that she currently runs.

 

 

Normalize It Forward | Penny Jarrett | Young Adults

 

Depression and anxiety are among the biggest mental health challenges being faced by most young adults right now. Wellness coach and therapeutic art practitioner Penny Jarrett is here to discuss how they can look after themselves better through self-care. Joining Marc Lehman, she discusses how social media and the internet greatly contribute to young people’s toxic self-comparison and limiting beliefs. Penny also underlines how positive affirmations and addressing unresolved dreams and trauma can unleash your greatest potential.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Young Adults And Mental Health Care With Penny Jarrett

Welcome to the show. This is a show that talks openly about mental health and wellness. We are here to welcome Penny Jarrett. Penny is a mental health and wellness coach, a writer, a speaker, and a therapeutic art practitioner. She’s passionate about helping people overcome their challenges so that they can begin to live fulfilled lives, joy, and free of pain and confusion in the negative effects of trauma.

 

Normalize It Forward | Penny Jarrett | Young Adults

 

Penny, welcome. It is very nice to have you here.

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. I don’t know if that intro did you justice, if there’s anything you’d like to add, or if that covered it well.

It was lovely. I was feeling good listening to you describe me. I was like, “Thank you.”

It certainly seems like you’ve done a lot of different things.

I was about to say that.

Self-Care

You sound busy, which is great. Busy is good. Certainly, everybody that comes to the show comes with a different perspective and a fresh view of things. Our main thrust is to try to talk more openly about health and wellness and try to get a good sense out as much as we can to role model for our young adults out there how important it is to talk openly. When it comes to mental health and wellness, there are a number of offshoot topics that, if it’s okay, I’d love to ask your perspective on, beginning with the topic of self-care. I’m wondering. When you hear the phrase self-care, what does self-care mean to you?

Self-care, to me, is an extension of true self-love. When everyone talks about self-love and self-care, there can be loud opinions when people express things and we cling to it. We don’t dig deeper and personalize it for ourselves all the time. Even the topics being talked about loudly are great. If we think about the fact that love is a verb and it’s something we do and it’s not just something we feel, it’s a beautiful feeling when you feel all that love.

To love ourselves is not always going to be a feeling. It’s not always going to be, “I’m finally accepting myself for my flaws. I love myself. I feel all of this warmth, compassion, and fondness for myself.” Having those feelings towards ourselves is amazing. It improves our self-esteem. It helps us take opportunities and believe in ourselves, but it’s not always the case.

There’s a huge amount of people who don’t naturally feel those ways about themselves. We might feel sometimes that the reasons behind that can be vanity so we feel ashamed to talk about it. It could be something that has happened in our past, a mistake we’ve made, or the way that we view our family. This is coming from my own personal experience, and everything I’m saying here as well.

When you don’t have those natural feelings of fondness for yourself, the least you can do is love yourself because you are yourself. People often go to confidence classes. They want to love themselves. They want to feel a certain way. The way you do it is by loving yourself because it doesn’t always come naturally. I feel like self-care is a way to love yourself, and there are ways to do that.

I speak a lot at different events and stuff. We say, “Self-care is not just face masks, but a big portion of it is.” I, at one point, was completely like, “With self-care, forget the face mask.” As my self-care and my own wellness journey have come I wouldn’t say 360 because it’s not back where it was but has gone a 180 and then loads of sparkles and glitter, I’ve had to come back to the face mask, chilling, looking after my physical body, and resting.

Before, self-care, to me, when I was at the beginning of my journey was setting boundaries, saying no, quitting people-pleasing, and doing all of these things that were showing me that I was always trying to fill everyone else’s cup up and not my own. As time has gone past and those things come second nature to me, and I’ve changed, I’ve had to come back to make sure I’m loving myself with long walks, time alone, time connecting with people if that’s the season I’m in, and spending twenty minutes to do something for my skin and put that first. When you struggle, those are the things that are neglected. In a nutshell, and I am the least nutshell-y person because I’m always going off on tangents, self-care is the act. It’s an extension of self-love.

Self-care is an extension of self-love. Share on X

I talk to a lot of young adults. When it comes to things they can control versus things they can’t control, there are so many things they engage with in life that they can’t control. Self-care is one of those things that you can choose to do. You can choose to get enough sleep. You can choose to take those walks. You can choose to be good to your physical self. Setting boundaries is a topic by itself. We could talk about it for hours. It is protecting oneself, making sure that you’re not around toxic people, and you are saying no to people, which is okay to do. I love that. It’s such a big topic.

I try to promote the concept with young people of, “You have these choices. They’re not chosen for you. These are choices you have that you can do.” I’ve done the same throughout my own journey. We’ve learned a lot, and we’ll continue to learn. For young adults, in many ways, they’re almost beginning that journey and trying to figure that part out. Self-care, what a rich topic. I love your tangents. They’re great.

Thank you.

Mental Health

Mental health is such a weird topic. I feel like some people talk about it very openly and some people avoid the topic. Mental health, to me, is something we all have. Wellness is one of those things that fits in and, in some ways, is a solution or something that helps us that we can choose to have. Even seeing a therapist is a choice for many people. I don’t know how much of this you’re aware of, but with the population of young adults that I see in college, the anxiety levels and depression levels are through the roof. I wonder. In your viewpoint, what seems to be causing that?

Everybody who existed in the time when the internet didn’t, you don’t have to be a genius to point it out. If we think about anxiety and depression as an example and get really basic with it, I know it’s not basic or surface-level. I’ve experienced both at varying degrees, at times when I knew what they were and at times when I didn’t. That’s why these conversations are so important because going through something like anxiety and severe depression, not knowing what it is, is wild. These conversations are so important because you get to hear what people describe your experience. You can begin to come out of it.

If you think about anxiety, it is fear, and it’s not always warranted. It’s not always come from something. We often have difficult things we’ve been through or difficult experiences we’ve witnessed or endured, aka a pandemic, trauma in the household, stress, or different things we’ve gone through. We can then become protective and fearful about that happening again when it’s gone. For some people, they don’t. Some people are like, “That’s over. Let’s live.” Some of us become very hypervigilant and protective. We can’t move past that. We don’t always dig deep. That’s why therapy is amazing because your therapist asks you questions that help you to realize, “This fear that I’m holding, I am afraid of losing someone again. I am afraid of losing myself. I am afraid of dying.”

When you get down to it with anxiety, there’s a fear. It’s like, “I’m afraid of failure. I’m afraid of not living up to my own expectations or expectations of my parents,” but it’s never that loud. It’s always at the back but it steers the behavior and causes a constant knot. The truth is wellness is a solution but it’s also a destination. It’s a state. It’s a state of wellness, a state of well-being, and a state of joy, which we all have innately but don’t always access.

I go back to talking about the internet. When we’re over flooded with and over inundated with other people’s lives, other people’s successes, or other people’s smiles when we’re not happy, all of these things we compare naturally. We’re not sitting there saying, “Her life is better than mine. His girlfriend’s prettier than mine. His grades seem to be higher than mine.” You’re not doing it loud. It happens because we’re taking in all of this information so naturally. What that can cause is a constant fear that you will never live up to all of these things that you’re seeing. That’s one of the things.

Don’t get me wrong. I suffered from anxiety for years and it came from living in a traumatic environment, living in a dysfunctional home, and experiencing a lot of violence. I knew it was over. I knew nothing would make that lifestyle come back to me but I could not live freely. I had to really speak life over myself. I had to tell myself, “I am free,” regularly. I knew I was free, but my mind didn’t and my nervous system didn’t. I was as tight as a clenched fist for about six years. There are different sides.

If you think of what depression is and you break the word down, it is depressed. You pressed it down. What makes you feel heavy? What makes you feel like you are pressed down? What are these things? A lot of the time, when we dig deep and we get to some of the emotions attached, there’s a lot of bitterness, unforgiveness, and anger. There’s also a lot of grief and resentment for things that didn’t happen, things that we haven’t done yet, or talents that we’ve got inside of us that we’re not bringing out.

There is a lot of grief and resentment for things that did not happen or the talents we are not bringing out. Share on X

I coach people. A funny story is I wanted to be a counselor but I found out that I wouldn’t be able to hug anyone. I thought, “I can’t have someone crying in my office and I can’t hug them.” I was like, “I’m going to be a life coach,” at the time. It was like, “You can’t hug and you can’t tell anyone your personal life? Forget it. I’ll be a coach.”

I’ve hugged plenty of clients.

I know. Whenever I tell my friends this story because I’ve got friends that work in the therapy field, they are like, “You can so hug.” I’m like, “You should have told me that in uni.” I work with a lot of people who have ADHD. Common symptoms are depression and anxiety. They go hand in hand a lot. Whenever I dug a little bit deeper in the first few sessions, I’m not kidding you that over the past couple of years, maybe 70% of the people that I’ve worked with that are being treated for depression or have obvious depression have something inside of them that they are not bringing out. It’s usually a hobby that could have turned into a career, a talent, or a skill that they didn’t think would make them money so they pushed it aside, or a dream.

It’s not all the time, don’t get me wrong. I know there are chemical imbalances. I know life happened. I know this stuff. A lot of them are ashamed to even admit that they’ve got this dream. Why? It’s because of the fear of not ever doing it or not ever realizing it. If I was to answer your question after that massive answer in a nutshell, crippling fear from unrealistic expectations and comparison contributes towards a lot of anxiety that isn’t like an anxiety disorder, which can come from trauma. I know sometimes things come out of nowhere and then are related, but this is in my mind and my experience. A lot of depression comes from unforgiveness. That includes not forgiving yourself for your mistakes and also dreams, talents, and gifts that haven’t been explored, played with, practiced, or used.

Normalize It Forward | Penny Jarrett | Young Adults
Young Adults: A lot of depression comes from unforgiveness, and that includes not forgiving yourself for your mistakes.

 

I’m thinking a lot about that answer because I see that a ton in my office.

I’m not saying these things cause all of it, but a lot of the intensity and severity of the amount of anxiety and depression people are experiencing would be less intense if those things were paid attention to.

I hear that.

They contribute massively.

Young Adults

To take it a step further, I find myself advocating for young adults to get assistance when they need it. What’s fascinating about the age bracket of 18 to 22, which are the college-aged kids, is it’s the lowest age bracket out there in the US for people getting assistance. When you look at statistics, in many cases certainly with anxiety and depression, they’re the highest individuals that have anxiety.

You’ve got this huge disparity. A lot of things can cause that to happen. When I’m working with a young person and they’re heading off to college, talk about ambiguity. They don’t know what’s coming. You really got me thinking about that unresolved idea of, “I have a thought, a talent, or something inside that I’ve been too afraid to go after.”

It could even be an identity.

They’re like, “I’ll move it to the side and not tell anybody.” What a concept. It’s tough being a young adult.

If I am honest, a lot of the people that I’ve had those conversations with are usually a little bit older because time is getting on and that causes more pressure. Even though we know that you are as young as you feel, you can start fresh anytime you want, life begins at 40, and all of those things, there is still that tick-tock that goes on in the back of the mind that time is getting on, they’ve missed the boat, and stuff like that. It does apply. It’s the feeling that you are not living out who you really are. It’s not behind all depression.

As much as I love the internet, with people seeing how quickly someone gets famous, how quickly someone gets this change in life, and with lots of young people being completely addicted to these apps, it’s also like, “That would never happen for me,” or, “That isn’t happening for me.” It’s stuff like that as well. Feeling that sense of purpose and getting an understanding of why you are here or what you want to do while you are here is part of it.

I’m with you on that. A lot of times in therapy, I find myself drawing some of those inner thoughts out from my patients around, “What is it that you want to do in life?” I always feel blessed that I found counseling because I really like helping people and I like coming to work. I work a lot but I enjoy what I do. I want that for all of my patients whatever field they choose to be in. I see so many people who are unhappy with their career choices. To your point, for young people to be thinking about if those things that they’ve pushed to the side are causing symptoms, whether it be anxiety, depression, or both, that they could be considering as an option to take a look at and go after.

Social Media

The internet is an interesting one, Social media in particular. It has certainly had its bad publicity and good publicity. I certainly use it plenty for advertising my services and so forth. For a lot of people, that has become a way to connect with services and try to figure out who’s got what out there. There is so much comparison that goes on, especially for young people. The comparison is never like, “I feel great about myself because I’ve looked at social media.” It’s always negative. It’s always like, “Now I don’t feel as good.” You said the individuals that you work with are a little bit older. I don’t feel like there is an age where that stops.

I don’t.

At 14, 18, or 25, there’s this comparison piece that doesn’t make people feel good about themselves. It makes them feel less. It makes them chase, want more, or feel really bad about themselves. There’s a piece to social media that, to me, is so unhealthy and not helpful for people.

That’s so true. It also breeds this automatic expectation that you are supposed to do things in order to receive validation or an opinion. If you’ve got a social media account and you depend on likes and comments for engagement and that’s all it’s about, then how do you separate that into real life? How do you then say to yourself, “I want to be a singer. No one in my family was a singer. Everyone was a doctor. It’s an easy route for me. I’m already in school, but I want to be a singer. The truth is, my family already thinks this.” It’s not like, “Let me try and maybe I’ll fail.” People aren’t even fully afraid of failing. They’re afraid of people saying bad things about them and not liking them.

Back in the day or not too far back in the day, you’d have to send a demo to an agent or a record label. You keep doing that and see if you’re good enough. Now, before you even get to that point or before you even gather the bravery or the contact to reach out to someone who could help you with your career, you’ve got the whole of the public that have access to you possibly telling you you’re not good enough. These people, you haven’t even got proof whether they can hear or not. They might be a robot who sends the same comment to 100 people a day. That could ruin everything for you. Growing resilience around what people think of you is so vital but so hard.

Growing resilience around what people think of you is so vital but also so hard. Share on X

It’s important to remind ourselves about the false sense that we get from social media. It’s great when someone feels good about those likes and that engagement. That’s wonderful, but it’s such a roller coaster. It’s not real. This is not real life. This is not Mark saying to Penny, “You’re a wonderful person.” That’s real life. That’s a conversation. It’s computers. It’s robotic. With AI, you don’t even know if it’s real.

If someone listens to a type of music I don’t like and they say my song is bad, I’d be like, “I don’t even like the same music as you so it’s bad to you. We don’t even like the same music. Our ears aren’t tuned the same. Talking in that sense of singers, I was saying that as an example of hobbies, it can be something like that. It is thinking that people are going to have opinions about something you are interested in or feeling that you have to post about it anyway. There are certain age groups or certain groups that are like, “You post about your stuff.” You don’t have to.

Exactly. There’s an option.

People don’t have to know every single thing about you. While you explore, try different things, get to know yourself, get to know what you like, and turn down the opinions of others, which is a big task and I know it’s not easy, try everything. Try all the things you’re interested in to see which one lights you up. You don’t have to share it on the internet and see which other people like before you decide.

That’s a great point. That’s the nice connection between mental health, wellness, and social media. Social media is all about other people’s opinions. Pick a topic. You’re going to find plenty of people who agree with you and plenty of people who disagree with you. That tug of war never ends up feeling good. We don’t get self-worth from that. It’s not real as opposed to finding people who care about you, finding friends, or finding people who would say to you, “If that’s an area you want to explore as a person, you should do that. I’m really proud of you. I’m happy for you. I’m this. I’m that.”

Your point about posting is so good. When I say that to young people, they look at me like, “I hadn’t really thought I had the option to not post.” There are certain things in this world that should remain private, in my opinion. When we talk about wellness and mental health, unfortunately, the numbers for young people are pretty ugly. The suicide rate is high. The anxiety rate is high. The depression rate is high.

The one big thing I’d love for people to walk away reading this episode thinking is, “We might need to do things a little bit differently. The way we’re approaching wellness might not be working.” Especially for young people, it might not be working as well as it could be. Maybe we need to have some parameters around social media. Maybe we need to be digging in a little bit deeper and exploring more with self-care. Maybe we need to be doing things a little bit differently to get a better effect rather than saying, “I’m depressed. That’s the way it is. Things will eventually get worse.” There’s a better way. That’s a thought.

I’m dealing with college campuses on a regular basis. I have 2 kids, 23 and 21. From my perspective as a parent, it becomes a little overwhelming to think there are so many kids out there with so many difficulties in the realm of mental health. I would love to help all of them but I can’t. Certainly, I would love for them to be able to take some information about things we’re talking about. I’ve had mentors in my life who along my journey have made suggestions and helped me improve things. I really feel that as much as I love listening to elderly people because I feel like I can learn from them, young people can learn from us and some of the things we’ve been through.

Advice To Young People

Let me ask you in that vein in terms of mentors you’ve had or in terms of suggestions that have been made to you or things that have been said to you along the way that you think would be helpful. Let’s say you were talking to a young person and you wanted them to know something that you’ve learned over time that you think would be really helpful. What would that be?

There are a couple. The first one that had an impact on me during my own mental health journey and moments of crisis was, “Don’t believe everything you think because not everything you think is real. It’s not because it’s a predominant loud thought in your mind that it means it’s real.” It sounds basic, but if you are having a moment where you are catastrophizing everything, where tomorrow feels scary, where your hope for your future spouse and whether you’re going to get married, whether you’re going to do well in your exams, or whatever it might be, whatever’s causing you to get out of this present moment and into the future and start ruminating the worst case scenario, landing somewhere, deciding that’s it, and struggling because of that idea or that thought, catch yourself and say, “Not everything is real.”

That is huge. That’s like half the population of young adults out there. What a great, simple, really important concept for people to know because it is, number one, so truthful, real, and simple.

How many times have we wasted weeks, years, or months worrying about something, looking down on ourselves, or even so much as not enjoying ourselves on vacation because we feel like we don’t look nice? We see the pictures and we look wonderful. We think, “If I knew I looked like that, I would’ve been having a great time.” This is what we go through.

Being present at the moment and saying to yourself, “Not everything is real. The catastrophe that I’m imagining for next year might happen or it might not, so I’m going to live like it won’t,” is powerful. It is that shift. It’s a really present thing to do. It’s not always easy, but there are things that can help. Another thing I would also say is we are not taught enough about the power of our words. Don’t believe everything you think because not everything you think is real. Also, your word is your weapon.

We are not taught enough about the power of our words. Your word is your weapon. Share on X

Tell me more about that.

I say that because we’ve all heard of positive affirmations. That’s one thing. They have the power to rewire your brain. I’ve got loads of stuff on this. If you’re struggling with low self-esteem or you’ve got some options to make based on your future and you don’t know where to go because you want to do all the things that people your age are doing where you want to have a relationship and you want to have fun but you also want to stay in because you don’t want to be judged or anything to go wrong, have a few phrases that you say to yourself about yourself which are true.

A lot of the stuff we’re worrying about are lies that we’re believing. A lot of them are, “We’re never going to this. We’re never going to that.” It’s always something that has no evidence. Say a few things to yourself, and it doesn’t always have to be at the same time. It’s not a ritual or anything like that. You say, “I’m capable of amazing things. I believe in myself. I love myself.” They’re simple.

You say, “I’m not saying that to myself. I’m going to feel stupid because I don’t love myself. I don’t believe in myself.” Keep saying that to yourself. Do you know why? It is because what you say affects what you hear, what you hear affects what you think, what you think affects what you believe, and what you believe affects how you behave. It is not woo-woo. It is not spiritual. It’s facts. Your words are so powerful. If you keep saying, “I’m never going to be able to,” then you’re not.

This is an example. I had a friend who used to be self-conscious about her weight. Every time we got on a bus or anything like that when we were teenagers, she used to say, “Watch out, fat girl coming through,” to be funny. She wasn’t ever sad. She’s got a good personality. She’s a really funny girl. She used to do that all the time. I thought, “She’s only doing that because she doesn’t want anyone else to think it. She’s saying it.” She was saying, “Fat girl coming through,” to the point where I believed her. I thought she was fat. She wasn’t.

It took for me to see pictures of us as teenagers for me to realize, “This girl used to speak so much badness over herself.” I’m not saying that being a certain weight is bad because it’s not. People are trying to put on weight. People are trying to lose weight. Some people like to be bigger. Some people like to be smaller. I’ve been both and I’ve enjoyed both at different times. It wasn’t because she said it in a bad way. That’s not even relevant. I believed her. She’s a friend of mine. I trust her. I believe her. I know she doesn’t lie to me. When she says that she’s fat, I believe her.

If you were to say to me, “Tell me about your friend so-and-so,” I would say, “She’s lovely. She’s a little bit on the chubby side and a bit overweight. She is beautiful.” I would describe her because it would be what’s in my mind. When I looked back on the pictures, she was as thin as a pin. I believed her. Even walking side by side, I felt like I was walking with a big person. I never was. Her words were so powerful that they convinced me, and I have my own set of eyes.

Words are very powerful, whether it be our inner words or our external words.

Everything. They’re formed. When they leave us, they have energy. They have activity. There was a professor or scientist. He’s a Japanese guy. When I talk about this to people, they’re like, “You have to really believe it.” I’m like, “It would help if you believe what you’re saying because that energy also has a transformative power regardless.” It doesn’t matter who it is. Your words are powerful.

If you want to get down to the basic science of it, this guy was trying to figure out why plants grow better when you sing to them or talk to them. He took all the elements over time. He took all the elements of a plant, put them under a microscope, and spoke. He said loving words over the particles of the leaf, the soil, and the water, figuring out why this is true and why when you talk to or sing to a plant, it grows better.

They get to the point where they put water under the microscope. When they said horrible things to the water, made horrible sounds, and said nasty things, the particles in the water were all jagged. They were spiky. They were bouncing off of each other in a non-peaceful way. When he said lovely things like, “You are my favorite plant. You are growing so beautifully. Look at you,” and sang, the particles were all smooth and they flowed like a wonderful dance with 70% water.

If you don’t want to believe in the power of having to really get into it, look in the mirror, and get all meditative, which you don’t, to speak life over yourself, you don’t have to do that. You have to make a decision. You’re like, “I heard on a podcast that if I want to improve my anxiety, I need to start speaking life over myself. I know it’s not going to change everything but I’m going to try.” If you say, “I am free from fear,” every morning ten times, the strength that rises up in you, you’ll feel it. If you don’t, remember that the water in you, which is loads, will change physically because of that. If your waters are like that, then you are like that.

It’s a great point. I love that. I like simple things, and young people typically do as well. Anything that they’re able to glean from this conversation is beneficial. Anxiety and depression are complex things, but there’s a simplicity to how we view ourselves and the things that we do. It is not hard. Those are not difficult things to challenge yourself with. Wait and see. Do it for a week. Try it.

That’s what I was going to say. They’re not going to solve everything. Don’t get me wrong, I know this. I was diagnosed with ADHD, CPTSD, anxiety, and depression. I was even told there could be other things. I was like, “I’ve had enough. I’ll stick with these ones and keep it moving.” I get it. I’ve had the intrusive thoughts I’ve had. There have been times when if I weren’t alone, I could have gotten sectioned. The way I was feeling and the things I was saying, it was by the grace of God that I didn’t and I was out of it before someone came along.

Episode Wrap-up

I’m so glad that’s the case. I appreciate your honesty and your genuineness. You’re a very kind human being and a caring and considerate individual. Honestly, I feel like in the bit of time we’ve talked, you’ve given us a lot to think about and a lot of really great suggestions. I truly appreciate you taking the time. Can I put you on the spot one last time?

Of course.

As part of the show, I like to ask individuals I interview to nominate somebody, whether it be a friend, a coworker, or a relative, to be interviewed next to keep the conversation moving forward. I wonder. Is there somebody in your world that you think would be helpful to have on the show?

I would say my husband because he has a health management company. It all started because his son fell ill and was going through a mental health struggle. That made him leave his job and put all his time into his son. He could be someone great, but I could list loads.

We’ll get that information offline. I appreciate the suggestion. I look forward to meeting with him. I really appreciate your time and your energy. Thank you for spending some time with us. I appreciate it.

It’s a pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day.

You do the same. Take care.

Bye.

 

Important Links

 

About Penny Jarrett

Normalize It Forward | Penny Jarrett | Young AdultsI’m Penny and I am a woman on a mission to help heal the world by spreading as much joy as possible and encouraging people to truly understand and love themselves.

I am a wellness coach, therapeutic art practitioner, Content Creator, Podcaster, Writer, Speaker and all round Lover of Colour. Attached to each of these titles is an avenue I use to go about my mission.

 

 

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental Health

 

It is often said that one in five people suffer from mental health issues. This perspective is a bit flawed, because everyone is at risk of experiencing such internal battles no matter who they are. Marc Lehman discusses how we can reframe mental health and eliminate the backward understanding of its issues with Eric Kussin of the nonprofit organization #SameHere. Together, they explain how society and treatment must focus more on addressing one’s underlying trauma and less on being reactive to the disorders arising from it. Eric also emphasizes the impact of technology and social media on mental health, particularly for young people.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Reframing Mental Health With Eric Kussin

Welcome to Normalize It Forward, the podcast that openly talks about mental health and wellness. We are welcomed by my friend and colleague Eric Kussin, who was, for over twenty years, a professional sports executive. He got his start at the NBA League office, working with the expansion Chicago Sky, and then the NBA’s Phoenix Suns. He switched over to the NHL, working with the New Jersey Devils and the Florida Panthers, becoming the league’s youngest chief revenue officer. Eric has had some difficulty since then with mental health, which we’ll get into in a bit, and that has led him to launch his latest business called Same Here Global. Welcome, Eric.

Thanks for having me.

I probably didn’t do it justice.

I’m sure anyone who watches any podcast or video, when your bio is getting read, you cringe a little bit because if it goes too much into detail, you’re like, I sound like this heady person, and then if it’s not detailed enough, you’re like, did they learn enough about me? There’s no right answer to how anyone’s introduced. Don’t feel weird about that. Though it’s interesting, though, as long as we’ve been friends, I got to call you out on this in a collegial way. My last name is pronounced “Cusin.” I like talking openly and transparently when I know people are going to be listening because it’s like, you can know someone forever and something as simple as that.

Eric Kussin

My name is Marc with a C, and everybody spells it with a K. I appreciate the correction. That’s important. You want your name to be said and spelled correctly. I’m glad you said something. Thank you. Eric, tell me, you have such a fascinating story. Anyone who knows Eric knows he’s not a heady person at all. You have such a huge heart. Every time we talk, it is very clear to me that your passion for helping people and working in the space of mental health and wellness is super high. Let’s start off, if we could, just tell us a little bit about Same Here.

 

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental Health

 

Same Here was born. Thank you for those comments, by the way, that means a lot. There’s a lot that happens in this space that I’ve been in, where, because mental health is becoming a bubble, people are realizing it applies to more and more people. My theory would be everyone, but there are a lot of people in this space who, quickly on the first phone call with them, they reach out to you on LinkedIn or get connected to you through a mutual friend.

Immediately, if you’re intuitive, you can tell that they’re in the space because there’s some endgame for them, or there’s a dollar sign that they’re chasing after, or, in this space, an exit strategy, which is a term that was foreign to me when I worked in sports, because you’re working for sports teams, you want to win titles. You didn’t have an exit game of like, “In 3 to 5 years, I want to make.” That wasn’t even something I thought about. Appreciate those comments because I’m in this space. When you ask about what Same Here is, it’s because of my own lived experience and how awful, and I say this in a loving way towards mental health professionals out there, because I don’t think it’s their fault. I think it’s a system issue. Am I allowed to curse or not?

You are, absolutely.

We have a very fucke*-up, backwards mental health care system that leads with disorder. The best analogy I can make is everyone on this planet is walking through a high school together. Over the loudspeaker, we’re hearing, “Third period, please go to your third-period classrooms.” Some people are jumping into science class, math class, English class. Most people, 80% of people, are going, “Why is someone even making an announcement over the loudspeaker? I’m just going to keep walking through the hallway because I’m around friends and talking.” That analogy is how we are looking at mental health as a society, who has it and has to go into the classrooms, the 20% of people in the year. The stat is 1 in 5 people have mental illness all the time, and then who doesn’t. They’re like, “Who gives a shi* that I’m in a class, we’re in a school. I don’t need to go into some separate subject because this doesn’t even apply to me.”

Same here was born out of my own lived experience, which we’ll get into. I didn’t think it applied to me because of the way it’s marketed. That’s a brilliantly deceptive marketing message by the pharmaceutical industry. Why is it brilliantly deceptive? Because when you make the topic binary, that there’s 1 in 5 people who have it, you make it reactive for the whole rest of society. They don’t think they have it, and guess what happens to that rest of society? Because we know stress and trauma are cumulative, they eventually do have it. You’ve got the 1 in 5s who feel like they’ve crossed the line and have symptoms, to go, “My life is falling apart, I feel awful, what do I do? What’s the fix?” We grow up getting strep throat, bronchitis, pneumonia, and going to the nice man or woman in the lab coat, and they give us the diagnosis and then the medication for it.

 

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental Health

 

That’s what we think we need to do, and then everyone else, where I fell into that category, doesn’t think they have it. I don’t have depression, anxiety, PTSD, OCD, an eating disorder, alcoholism, or addiction, all the names that get put together in, “Well, I don’t have that, so if I don’t have that, I’m fine.” What ends up happening is this concept of what stress and trauma are, which are the sources of really the things that I just described or just named, are symptoms. They’re not diseases. You don’t ever get to the source. You don’t think about that source because you start treating, “Oh, well, I got to find what is depression and how do I fix depression? How do I fix my anxiety issue?” Same Here was born off of crashing because of not knowing that and trauma building in my own personal life, leading to me realizing there has to be a complete reframe in the way that we discuss, talk about, and normalize mental health. We are way too focused on labeling and diagnosing and not focusing on the fact that everyone goes through challenges.

There has to be a complete reframe of how mental health is discussed. We are way too focused on labeling and diagnosing people instead on how everyone goes through challenges. Share on X

There’s divorce, job loss, breakup, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, bullying, cyberbullying, sickness of loved ones, loss of loved ones, caring for sick older parents, moving to a new market, and being the one who’s isolated and doesn’t make a lot of friends right away. That’s the human condition that changes our nervous system states, which leads to this dysregulation, which leads to these symptoms that are then called disorders. The problem is, since that’s not universally understood, people don’t think they have it. We have these awful outcomes where people die by suicide, die by overdose. Same here is meant to say, “Why same here?” You and I, we’re the same. We can say that to every person on the planet, that it’s 5 in 5, not 1 in 5, because Marc, you’re a human being. I’m a human being. Anyone who listens to this, you’re a human being as well.

You’ve been through one, some, or many of that list that I just shared of those challenging life events. That means your mental health has been negatively impacted in some way. That makes the topic applicable to every single one of us, and then it becomes less scary. We can talk about it openly and share what we all go through. That’s a lot different than going, “Alright, the group of anxious people stay here. The group of depressed people stay here in those classrooms.”

Only you guys could talk, only soldiers know what PTSD is. They need to stay on their own, because they fought a war. No one else understands. The mother who lost her child at a young age, that’s a pretty harsh war that she’s fighting. It breaks my heart that the relatability isn’t there. I gave a long description to you asking what it is, but I wanted there to be commonality and understanding why we need to reframe.

Responsibilities Of Parents

Eric, I have to say that resonates so deeply with me. I’m a family therapist by background. I work with young people. One thing that I just, for the longest time, honestly didn’t understand but am coming to understand over time is how parents will bring their kids to every place under the sun to get ready for college, except for a counselor. Except for the support that we know, statistically, when we look at kids on college campuses, they absolutely will need it. I saw a statistic the other day that said something like 86% of kids at some point will reach that level, whether it’s a diagnosis or, as I call it, subacute, right below.

I look at all of the kids that I’ve worked with over the years, and those kids will go to college. They’re feeling decent, they’ve got some symptoms of stress or anxiety, but then they go to college, and all of a sudden, those symptoms climb. Maybe they reach a point of diagnosis, maybe they don’t, but clearly, there are lots of kids out there on every college campus that need assistance. I think one of the biggest reasons why parents aren’t thinking about it is exactly what you just said. We’re a very reactive society when it comes to wellness.

One of the biggest pushes that I’ve been making, and really starting this conversation to do so, is to get families to understand we are all involved in this. Helping your son or helping your daughter create some momentum going to college, or going to high school, or even getting out of school, towards their self-care, towards their wellness, towards things they’re able to do to manage life stress. Because one thing we can predict, and we know, is life stress is coming. It’s coming, it comes for all of us. The question really is, how do you handle it?

The issue on the parent side of things, which is interesting, because your practice and having people come and raise their hand and say it, and I can share with people, I’m not being critical of anyone who’s averse to it, because I didn’t know that it applied to me until I was 34 and the crash happened. I’m putting myself, raising my hand, saying I’m in your category as either a sufferer or a parent who’s not talking about it. I get calls all the time from people who are parents, because my friends are parents’ ages, and I haven’t grown up yet to get to that point. They’re so quick to put explanations on others in a way that doesn’t relate to them and their own parenting skills.

“Eric, do you have someone that can work with my kid on the perfectionist attitude they have on the soccer field? Do you have someone who could deal with the repetitive thoughts that they’re having when they get up to the plate and they’re batting and they can’t get out of their own head?” It stems a little into the classroom also, but I see it a lot on the ball field. That’s a much easier thing for a parent to ask for help about because it doesn’t seem like, “I did it.”

No, this is my kid when they are on the field, or on the court, or on the ice, or in the classroom, they’re dealing with something because of the situation. As opposed to when parents go, “Okay, we lost Grandma Millie three months ago, and Johnny hasn’t been coming out of bed over the weekends, he’s sleeping in until 2:00 or 3:00 PM. Okay, you know, Cousin Sarah is sick, and we go into the hospital, and, you know, Johnny’s been quiet recently.” They don’t share that second part, and the reason is because, and I see it in my own parents, I’m being real with people.

It feels, to a parent, like you think that you failed your child, that it’s hard for them to deal with these life situation things. It’s much easier when you see them dealing with it in situational things that they’re trying to be ambitious about. “Oh, how do I get them to be better athletes? How do I get them to be better students?” But no, in my house, no, look, we’ve got this under control. What I say to parents, because it’s your audience, is there is no perfect way to parent. What we go through in life as human beings, starting as children growing up, you could be the greatest parent in the world. What goes on up here in our heads, it’s the way that we’re wired.

It’s the way that we experience the world. I think Brene Brown is the one who tells a story. She had a client who was 35 years old, a beautiful woman, like lit up a room. The woman was what clinical psychology would call severely depressed. She’s saying, in her head, Brene is thinking, “What could be wrong with this? This woman has everything. She’s beautiful. She’s wealthy.” They start talking about the history and the past. “Tell me about your friends growing up.”

What goes on in our heads is the way we experience the world. Share on X

“Oh, I had a best friend who lived across the street from me.” Oh, tell me about that best friend. “She was really smart. It was back in the days when we would put the report cards up on the magnets on the refrigerators. My friend was really smart. She was really smart. She was really smart.” Brene’s picking up on this. It’s like, “Well, tell me about your relationship with your parents.” She said, “My parents were so supportive that they told me how beautiful I was all the time. I was in beauty pageants.”

And it starts to click for Brene. This woman, when she was a girl, was watching her friend get patted on the back by her parents across the street, talking about how smart she was. But because her own parents were talking about how beautiful she was, more so than how smart she was, she developed her own complex that she was not a very smart individual.

That’s a perfect example, hopefully, for parents, that you could be loving, caring, and supportive. My parents were amazing. When my brother was sick, they were driving me to every single practice there was. I look back, and I’m like, “Did they have seven cars to get me to all these places?”

They were phenomenal at being there for me, at hugging me after an event. What they weren’t great at, because it wasn’t their skill set, maybe I’m airing too much dirty laundry here, but it’s reality, I’m doing it for the help of other parents. My parents were not very good at talking about what was going on, because they themselves, it hurt them to talk about it. If my brother was sick, my dad’s way of dealing with it was saying, “Todd’s going to be fine. The chemo is going to work great. Everything’s going to come out great.” My mom’s way of dealing with it was to go into silent treatment and she pretended it wasn’t happening, but she didn’t talk openly about it. She would just be very reserved about it.

When you’re an 8, 9, 10, or 11-year-old kid, and my little brother is six years younger than me, you have these thoughts in your head. You’re like, “What happens if my brother dies? Where will he go? Will I ever see him again?” There’s no answer for these things. If your parents aren’t openly talking about them, you’re going to sit with those thoughts circulating around in your brain, trying to figure out what the answers are.

You don’t feel like you have the opportunity to open up and share. I share that background so that parents understand bringing your kid to therapy is no different than getting your kid a baseball coach to do batting practice with. I’d argue it’s more important than the sport or the grades, because this is the foundational work. This is the plate on which everything else lives. I promise you that they’re going through a breakup they haven’t said anything about, or a friend who said something hurtful that they haven’t told you about because they’re ashamed to tell you about it. There are things that kids hold onto, and having that support system is so needed.

Parents must understand that bringing their kids to therapy is no different than getting them to a baseball practice. Share on X

Social Media And Internet

It’s amazing, Eric. I will say, I’m the first one to say, I’ve been a parent for a long time. My kids are 23 and 21. I find myself saying, as parents, we’re guessing all the time, and oftentimes we’re guessing, we’re doing a good job of our guessing. We’re certainly making mistakes. There’s no playbook. We’re doing what we think is right. Like you said, if, in your mind as a parent, you’re thinking, “Nope, I don’t think therapy is going to be helpful to my son or my daughter,” then they simply overlook it. But to your point, let’s face it.

We live in a world that is so different from when we were growing up. Whether it’s phones, social media, COVID, all of this stuff has just shifted life. For young people, it’s hard to even compare life as a young person versus when we were younger. Eric, when we were younger, let’s remember, I would call a friend, I would talk to their mom, I’d leave a message, I’d wait a couple of days. They may or may not call me back. It was so different back then.

If you think of the science of what’s happening because of phones, because of access to media. Let’s just not even take social media for a second. Let’s look at what happened in the Persian Gulf war. When we were growing up, the video person would take footage of this light in the sky that looked like it was on another planet. You’d get no HD, it was grainy footage. They’d mail it back to the studio to then air it the next day on the news. Meanwhile, these kids are looking on their phones, and in real time, not social media, they have CNN or Fox News, or whatever their choice is of what they listen to.

I’m not trying to make it partisan. They see faces of children being burned. They see limbs being taken off. That, combined with social media and the comparisons, combined with the way that social media is built like a slot machine for updates. The fact that in your phone, takes social media out of it again, you get text messages, you get direct messages, we had beepers growing up. You had to go and call on a pay phone. Your email comes in 30 in a minute, as opposed to 30 over the course of three days.

That sympathetic nervous system response of the alert message, it wasn’t in place the way it was for us. We had this thing when we were younger called boredom. Like, it’s a joke. When I share that with kids, and some of them get the joke and some don’t, I was like, “We would sit around each other’s houses and go, we just played that video game because we only have three of them. We’re bored of that one. Let’s go outside and play.” You had to search for the next dopamine hit, but you didn’t know it was dopamine back then.

Looking back on it, I want to go play spud. I want to go play dodgeball. It’s fun to do that with friends. Those kids don’t need that. It’s literally here, and then in it being here, their brain is going “ping” over and over and over again. That exhausts the nervous system. The nervous system can’t take that. This concept of chronic stress and trauma, the list that I gave earlier of the divorce and job loss and breakup and all those things, that’s just the baseline that’s then compounded by all this technology.

You add up all these things that are building and building and building inside of us. It’s definitely not the same. These kids are going through worse. We’re going through it as adults at the same time as them, but we at least have the luxury of remembering what the time was like before technology and going, “Okay.” This is weird to say, but it’s true. I’ll be proud of myself if I watch a movie on Netflix and don’t check my phone. To me, that’s meditative. Back when we were kids, our parents would go, “Get off the TV. You’re watching too much TV.”

It’s a luxury now to be able to spend time on TV and not check your email. That’s what we need kids doing more of. It’s uncommon upon our generation because you have baby boomers who probably the technology is not common to them the way it is to us. For those of us who are the generation above these Gen Z’s and these kids that are in, it’s on us to go, “We understand the technology. We understand what it does for us, but you only know the world through the lens of this technology. You don’t know the world when there’s a calmer state. We need to help you find that balance.”

Self-Care

That’s an excellent point. I find that so often when I talk to young people, they don’t have that frame of reference. Shifting into that, Eric, because it’s a really important topic, self-care. Self-care is something within mental health and wellness that gets talked about. Parents may get on their kids to do this or do that. I guess I wonder, when you think of self-care, what does that mean to you?

The plug for this, only because I believe it in my heart of hearts, there’s a campaign that goes on social media, “Self-care isn’t selfish.” My facetious comment to that is, your campaign is not a very good campaign if you need a campaign to explain your campaign. People think of, when they hear the term “self-care,” things like massage and bubble baths and candles. That’s an important piece of a self-care routine. That’s why that phrase “self-care isn’t selfish” is there for you because it makes it seem like, “I’m doing stuff for me.”

Self-care is really work. That’s why we call it STAR, which is stress and trauma active release and rewiring, a gym for the brain. You got to make people understand new concepts, you have to make it analogous to existing concepts that they already do understand. We understand that the body falls apart over time if we don’t get to the gym and do something about it. If we don’t eat well, that means there’s work to do for our body to stay in decent shape. Obviously, there’s different levels of that, some people want to look like Mr. or Mrs. Olympian.

Some people just want to be able to live an active lifestyle where they can walk around the block without getting winded. That’s your choice of where you want to be on that. That same concept should be understood for mental health, that there’s work that I need to do in order to keep this in a decent place. It’s sad that that’s not the common understanding. The reason it’s not the common understanding is because there’s a pill for that. I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m in the 4-in-5, nothing’s wrong. I cross over into the 1-in-5. What do I need that fixes me? That’s like dealing with your heart health by saying, “I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine.”

I’m not taking a look at the scale as the weight goes up and up and up and up. “Oh, wow, I just had these pains in my left side of my chest. Let me go to the doctor and get the statin drug.” That’s not a way to live healthy. You need to get on the treadmill. You need to walk around the block. You need to get yourself active. When I think of self-care, I think of work. People don’t like hearing the term “work,” but you have to be specific with them and direct with them and say, “You want to feel a certain way.”

It takes a certain amount of work to get to feeling that way. We’ll make it fun. We won’t make it like what you were talking about, where people dread sometimes having the therapy session. We’ll give you mind-body practices. We’ll give you exercises that enable you to feel like you’re doing something that’s active, that’s moving the body. To not do anything is a recipe for disaster, and I’m a perfect example of that.

I like how you said that, Eric. I think many of us are, honestly, because that becomes the default of, like, okay, we’re feeling a little lazy, a little sluggish. We’re just going to default back to that. I’m a big fan of making sure young people and adults have actual ideas and things as they’re listening to conversations like this as takeaways. It’s like, okay, you know, what can I do? Okay. Eric’s talking, Marc’s talking, what can I do? The typical kid, when they go to a college campus, you said it best with the heart issues, they’re not paying attention to needing to do anything until they’re having that really bad issue.

Until their anxiety is at an 8 out of 10 and they’re feeling really awful, they may not choose to do anything, kind of the proactive-reactive. I’ll just throw this out. I’m a huge fan, obviously, of being proactive and recognizing, hey, if we just take care of ourselves, even if we’re doing one thing each day, getting good rest, getting some physical activity, don’t climb Mount Everest, just get some physical activity, eating a decent meal. We all have the ability to make those choices. I’m throwing it out because, to me, as far as self-care goes, if we make those choices, we’re taking care of ourselves and we avoid those issues. If we’re not, we’re waiting for them to come.

Also, obviously, I’m living in an idealistic world that I know we’re ten years away from this understanding. When we were in the 1980s going to the gym for the first time, there were charts on every single wall showing you what each piece of equipment did. There weren’t many colors that the printers could print with, so they were made out of brown. They showed the muscle groups in the body. If you lift like this, you’re working out the bicep muscle. There’s a misunderstanding with mental health that when your mental health is off, it’s strictly this thing called the chemical imbalance. Let’s put chemicals in to balance out the imbalance.

When the reality is your amygdala starts to become over-functioned. It starts sending beta and gamma waves out throughout the rest of your body and telling your HPA axis, “We got to start shooting cortisol throughout our adrenals so that the rest of the body gets into an activation mode.” Our vagus nerve starts to lose vagal tone. It goes from being this rubber band to being more strict like this because we’re holding ourselves like this all the time. Our gut becomes porous, and we start to get gut overgrowth as well as gut dysbiosis. I’m throwing out geeky science terms for a reason.

Those are the equivalent of the muscle parts that we saw in those pictures in the 1980s that got us doing the exercises for it to become second nature for us to know, “Okay, if I want bigger shoulders, I do these things called shoulder flies or shoulder presses. That’s my deltoid muscle.” We need people to understand that the events of stress and trauma start to impact the structures in our body. The structures in the body, there are exercises, when you ask about self-care, I’m diving deeper into it, that I can do, what does tapping do on what meridians are and what even are meridians and how do meridians start to get clogged? What does havening do on that amygdala function to start to dampen those beta and gamma waves and start to get it going in alpha wavelength? If we don’t understand those things, one, what are we doing?

You don’t go to the gym and run on a treadmill, not knowing why you run on the treadmill and just sweat. You run on the treadmill because you go, “It increases my cardiovascular health. I’m allowed to, I’m able to, I should say allowed to, I’m able to run and walk longer distances. I can pick up my kids when I want to. Maybe I’ll have this benefit of losing weight because there’s a caloric deficit versus what I ate. Sure, I’ll go on the treadmill,” and then we get on the treadmill. We don’t have that in mental health with the exercise. We have, and you’ve seen the meme, and I hate the meme, and it devalues what you all do as practitioners.

It’s a person sitting across the couch from a practitioner. The person has all these tangled-up balls of yarn in their head. You, the practitioner, are the one that’s untangling them and putting them into new separate colors. That is telling people you need to go to Marc so that Marc can fix you with his magical powers. That’s not how therapy works. It’s not how self-care works. It’s Marc’s giving you the tools for you to do the work. You understand how to work on yourself so that you have control and agency in this. We’re far away from that because, I beat a dead horse on the pharmaceutical industry, but we have a system, and it goes back to me saying that our mental health system is fucke* up, we have a system that works for a lot of people.

If CBT and DBT, not to knock them because they’re great, but if those are the gold standards in what you do when you go to a therapist, and med management is the gold standard when you go to get medication, and it stays within that, what that does is keep a recurring revenue model of patients continuing coming back. Why is that going to change when the system is based on that? It’s not going to change. We got a ways to go in terms of educating people and getting the folks like you and the folks who are part of Dr. Plainer Same or Psych Alliance to go, “Guys, there’s ways for you to actually get to the source and start to heal so that you can start to do some of these things on your own. You don’t have to be in therapy with me forever.”

Not that being in therapy is a bad thing. Do maintenance therapy once a month, like have a person that you check in with, do it through telehealth, but I’ll land the plane on that comment with this, I think of the show The Jeffersons, and I remember a scene, it was a scene in every single sitcom we had growing up. Helen is the neighbor, and Weezy Jefferson goes, “Oh, Helen, you’re looking great lately.” She made some comment like, “It only took me 30 years and my entire life savings of therapy to get to this place.” It was a joke back then, but it’s real. It’s like you’re putting that much time and effort and money into feeling better to get to this place. It makes no freaking sense. How do we learn the exercise and the practices so that we can start to take more of the control along with the guide from the therapist?

Stigma Of Trauma

I think you make a number of good points, Eric. I want to just expand on one for a moment. I run into a lot of parents that, when you use the word trauma, it got me thinking. I run into a lot of parents that will say, “Well, my son or my daughter, they haven’t been traumatized. They haven’t had this. They haven’t had that.” I sat back and watched the shi* show that went on on college campuses last spring, and how college campuses couldn’t get encampments off campus and all of that. I remember seeing an interview with a young person. He was a freshman, I won’t mention the school’s name, but he was a freshman.

He was being interviewed, and he looked right at the camera and said, “This wasn’t on the tour.” I thought, spot on, my man. Like, you know what? It wasn’t. There’s stuff happening for young people we can’t predict. I can’t tell you how many times, Eric, and it’s really sad. I’ll get in a meeting with a young person and say, “How was your week?” They’ll say, “Not very good. Someone killed themselves in my building this weekend.” They didn’t even know the person, but it’s a contemporary. Those are all traumas.

Look at what your comment ties back to what we were talking about with parents’ readiness and willingness to bring their kids to therapy. Saying, “My child’s never been through anything traumatic,” is a protection mechanism of the parents saying, “I’ve never put them through anything traumatic.” They want to believe that they’ve created this cocoon around their kids. That’s why I brought up the Brené Brown examples. You don’t know what’s going on in your kids’ minds. It starts with helping a parent to understand trauma is not specifically an event that was awful that happened. Trauma is anything that they experienced that overwhelmed their ability to cope in the moment. That could be applied to anything, like being broken up with.

Trauma is not specifically an awful event that happened. It is an experience that overwhelms your ability to cope in the moment. Share on X

If you’re fourteen years old and what they call puppy love, which is a bullshi* term for it because that’s trying to minimize what someone felt, that’s the first time a human being fell in love with someone, even if it was a three-week relationship. That person gets broken up with, and what kids do, that boy or that girl is seen with someone else right away. That crushes that person. The ability to feel in that moment and cope with that experience of being crushed, the child doesn’t have those, and then all of a sudden, they think, “I can’t tell my mom or my dad about this because it seems weird that I got dumped and I’m a loser,” and that is trauma.

I give that example, and I’m sure you give these examples when you speak with clients who come in, because we have to normalize that trauma is not someone’s head went through a windshield. That’s one thing that’s possible, but there’s so many other traumas that happen that is that inability to cope in the moment and being overwhelmed by it. That should not be something that we’re shamed of. That should be something, if anything, that’s a badge of honor, that we’ve been able to overcome and get to this point that we’re at, given what we’ve had to live through.

We have to normalize that trauma is not as if someone’s head went through the windshield. Share on X

Eric, I have to say, it’s a great segue. I have told so many people over the years about Same Year, and it’s amazing to me how many people, the next time back in my office, will remark on 5 and 5 because it resonates. It resonates with people to say, “You know what? I’m a human being. Eric’s a human being. They’re human beings. We are all susceptible to shi*. It just happens.” I think when we get to that place, we normalize this conversation and bring it into a focus of, guess what? We don’t have to be scared of this, but we do have to deal with it. It’s really important.

The 5 and 5 thing, which is funny, is because people will skeptically, when they come back to me, and I’m of the belief that 1 in 5 is a planted statistic because of the deceptive marketing that I shared, and then I’ll say, “Well, in a space where people are looking for there to be improvement, don’t you think instead of continuously saying 1 in 5, they might say things like, Great news. We’re down to 19.3% instead of 20%?” You’d never hear that movement. They’re like, “Yeah, but Eric, wouldn’t that be better if it was 3 in 5, 4 in 5, like, because then more people would think to get help?” I say, “No, the second you make it binary, it doesn’t matter if it’s 4.9 in 5 or 5 out of 5, you’re telling a group of people they don’t have it.”

That’s why I disrespect, with all respect, the NAMI’s of the world and the Mental Health Americas of the world, because they’ve started to use the “everyone has mental health” message, but it’s always coupled with “1 in 5 people have mental illness.” The reason they’re doing that is because they’ve got a group of people they’ve protected, that have donated to them, that are the parents of the quote, mentally ill group that think, yeah, everyone has mental health, but my kid has it worse. Your group sticks up for my kid. My comment to society, that group of people, and everyone else is this concept, the stigma that everyone talks about and bandies about is on every single podcast, that never goes away if you keep people in separate groups. If you want to say, “you have it worse,” congratulations, like you can make that claim all you want, but what’s that?

It’s not a contest.

It’s not a contest. If you want to even hold onto it as a contest and believe, because of your symptoms, I’m someone who was in bed for two and a half years, couldn’t function, I don’t want that to be the understanding that I had it worse than other people, because then the person who only has it for three days instead of two and a half years will never relate to me. We have to be on the same team. If not, that concept of stigma never goes away. When Kevin Love says, “I had anxiety and a panic attack, and I ran off the basketball court,” and Michael Phelps says, “I had depression and suicidal ideations,” and Simone Biles says, “I had depression. I had to pull out of the Olympics,” that’s not normalization. The reason that’s not normalization is because it’s doubling down on the existing erroneous message that all mental health is if you have a disorder.

We need Michael Phelps and Kevin Love and Simone Biles to talk about what they went through in their life so that we can show we all go through things. Simone Biles’ story is a lot stronger when she talks about the rape with Larry Nassar. I know it’s very difficult to discuss, but she has talked about it openly at some points, her brother being on trial for triple murder. Those are things that are traumatic to our system that, “Oh, my brother got in legal trouble,” “Oh, my friend was the victim of rape,” or “I was the victim of sexual abuse.” That’s relatable in a way that labels are not.

Subacute

Here’s the thing. I can only say, as a therapist, Eric, that so often I’ll have a family come into my office, and there’s an identified patient. “My son, my daughter has Asperger’s, or has this, or has that.” As a therapist, you just become attuned to watching for certain things. Quite frankly, I would say a very large portion of our population is what I would call subacute.

They don’t meet the criteria for the DSM, but do they have symptoms? What the fuc* is the difference? Honestly, I’m the first one to say it. What’s the difference? To me, if you need some assistance, number one, get it. Number two, look at that and say, hey, we can all live a happier lifestyle. We should be talking about it more. We should be making decisions on a regular basis for our wellness, and we should stop shaming everybody.

 

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental Health

 

What you’re describing there is why the continuum model, I think, is so important and why we use the scale. In polyvagal, they call it ventral vagal, sympathetic, dorsal vagal. We call it thriving, gliding, surviving, fluctuating, struggling, sinking. I ran through that quickly just to say the fluctuating and the struggling, which are to the right before the final place to the right, which is sinking. Fluctuating and struggling is what I would agree with you on as where most people live. It’s over-sympathetic nervous system dysregulation, where, whatever their genetic makeup is, that increase in sympathetic response has been going on, and they’ve been thinking about things over and over again.

They’ve been through a lot of difficult events in their life. They’re starting to see, based genetically on how they’re wired, those symptoms start to manifest. For someone, it looks like the way they get through the day is washing their hands fifteen times. For another person, it looks like, I know I’m talking about OCD things, but they get sweaty palms before they go into a meeting. As long as they wipe their hands off and clean them off, they go into the meeting, and they can feel more confident. We have to start to notice those things as signs of dysregulation that’s leading towards, to your point, what modern psychology would call clinically depressed or anxious.

We just call it sinking, which is you’re at this place where the sympathetic response has been going on for so long that your neural pathways have been wired in that way, where you’re stuck in that spot. It’s hard to get out of this spot unless you’re given the tools from someone like a Marc who can help you get out of it. You get to use those tools throughout the rest of your life to start to keep yourself out of those ruts. If you see it on a continuum, you at least can go, I’m moving to that place. My thoughts, my feelings, my behaviors are changing to that spot. At sixteen years old, when the ambulance would go by, when I was playing basketball Saturday and Sunday, every single weekend, it was two miles away from my house.

My brain kept going, that ambulance is going to be at my house when I get home. It’s going to be at my house when I get home. That is subacute in the place that you’re describing it. That’s what we would call on our scale, either fluctuating or struggling, depending on having those repetitive thought patterns over and over again of catastrophizing, that I didn’t know at the time that that was a maladaptive thought pattern. I just thought it makes sense because my brother’s been sick a lot before. That thought’s still in my head. That doesn’t mean it’s healthy, and we should keep it there. We should do something about it. That’s why we wait and we wait and wait until these crashes happen.

Episode Wrap-up

You make an excellent point. I push the concept of being proactive because we don’t have to wait. As parents, I think it’s important for parents to hear that message. As you mentioned before, typically parents wouldn’t see symptoms in their young kid, let’s say physical symptoms in their young kid, and ignore them and let them build up and wait and wait until they have a heart attack. Why would they do that in this case? Look, first of all, I have to say, I could talk to you all day long, Eric. I think your passion and mine are definitely in line. I really appreciate, number one, your time and your energy. If you guys haven’t seen Eric’s Instagram, check him out. Your videos of you’re sitting in small chairs for an individual like yourself, Eric, are hysterical.

You can laugh out loud. You do so much good work out there, Eric, really. I want to point people to you. I want people to understand what Same Here is. More importantly, I want to normalize this conversation. I want wellness. I want mental health to be out there. I want people understanding the more we’re able to talk and share situations and stories and be honest, which you are all the time. I really appreciate that. The more we’re able to guide this conversation in a healthier manner. Thank you. Thank you so much for all of that.

I’m glad you’re doing these podcasts. I think the more people encourage other people to continue to listen to your podcast here and then encourage people to have these conversations like we’re having with each other, because it doesn’t normalize on its own. Campaigns do not normalize. I appreciate you saying 5 and 5. I think that helps us start the conversation.

We need people who are peer support advocates who get out there and go, this is my stuff. I’m not ashamed of it, and you probably have that stuff too. Let’s talk about it. If all you need to do is just listen to me, that’s fine. I don’t need you to say anything back to me, but just hear what I have to say, and eventually, you’re going to feel comfortable enough opening up to me.

I really appreciate your message, Eric. If I could put you on the spot as well for a moment, Normalize It Forward. The concept behind it is what I’d like to do is ask if you had an individual in your world, either a friend, coworker, or relative, that you think would be helpful for me to interview next so that the conversation could continue. I’d love to just get your thoughts on that. Anybody come to mind?

It must be serendipitous that you asked that question at this time, because my phone rang as you were asking the question. There’s a guy who’s got a good following too for you in terms of how to help with the reach of your podcast. His name is Ryan Phillips. He was a professional hockey player. Didn’t make it to the NHL ranks, but sexual abuse, abuse by coaches, and has been through a rigmarole of different treatments and been all over the country, been all over the world.

He’s Canadian-based when I say all over the country. He did a bike tour all over Canada, but he’s one of the few people who I’ve spoken with who, from a lived experience perspective, he just lets it rip and there’s no guard up whatsoever. He’ll tell you what he’s felt and what he’s been through. He’s a good soul and a good person who wants to help people.

Awesome. I appreciate it. We’ll connect, get his information, and get him on here because he certainly sounds like a valuable individual to continue this conversation. Once again, Eric, thanks for your time. Thanks for your energy. I really appreciate it. We’ll talk soon.

Awesome. Thanks, Marc.

Take care.

 

About Eric Kussin

Normalize It Forward | Eric Kussin | Mental HealthEric Kussin is a magna cum laude grad of Cornell University and 20+ year professional sports executive, who got his start at the NBA League Office. After five years with the League, he went the team business route and rose the ranks with the expansion Chicago Sky, and then the NBA’s Phoenix Suns.

He then switched over to the NHL, working with the New Jersey Devils, & Florida Panthers, becoming the League’s youngest Chief Revenue Officer. However, a debilitating mental health crisis stopped Eric’s career and life in its tracks for over two and a half years. After many failed treatment modalities, he was lucky enough to learn healing practices that enabled him to dig out of his abyss, and found a higher calling, launching a non-profit at the end of 2017 called, #SameHere – The Global Mental Health Movement. #SameHere’s Alliance is comprised of athletes and celebrities, along with media members, expert practitioners, advocates, and everyday heroes who’ve come together to make talking about mental health a common topic for “5 out of 5” of us.

Their #SameHere Movement has swept across college campuses in the US from Cornell to USC, K-12’s, Corporate Offices from CNBC to JPM Chase, Professional Sports Teams from the Golden State Warriors to the New York Mets, and military & first responder groups from the NYPD to the DOD. The Movement has recently begun to expand globally as well, with events in markets outside of the US. Eric hosts a podcast called “We’re All A Little ‘Crazy’” with NHL great Theo Fleury, and has launched an app called the: SameHere Scale to normalize emotional health monitoring & daily check-ins. To “keep his foot in sports,” Eric consults for a number of professional sports teams and leagues, guiding their ticket and sponsorship sales and retention efforts.

Normalize It Forward | Leon Logothetis | Kindness

 

Leon Logothetis, also known as “Leon the Kindness Guy,” is a global adventurer, motivational speaker, and author best known for his work in spreading kindness and human connection. Formerly a successful stockbroker, Leon left his career to embark on a journey around the world, relying solely on the kindness of strangers for food, shelter, and transportation. His experiences led to the creation of the Netflix series The Kindness Diaries, where he shares powerful stories of compassion and generosity. Leon now dedicates his life to inspiring others to lead with kindness, showing how small acts of goodwill can create lasting change in the world.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

Spreading Kindness One Mile At A Time: Leon Logothetis’ Inspiring Journey

Kindness

We’re joined by Leon. I’m going to allow you to introduce yourself because in all honesty, I’ve read a lot about you but I’m sure I’m going to screw it up somehow by talking about your experiences. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.

First of all, thanks for having me on. I used to be a broker in the City of London. This is going to be the short version. I had everything you could want on the outside but on the inside, I felt very broken. I ended up quitting my job after watching the movie the Motorcycle Diaries, which is about a man traveling around South America relying on kindness.

It inspired me and moved me to realize it was another way to live. I started traveling around the world, relying on kindness, meeting all these amazing people, being inspired and hopefully, inspiring some people along the way. I ended up moving to Los Angeles, did a couple of TV shows, wrote a few books, a documentary and here we are. That’s the very short version.

I appreciate it. I have to say, in our area, we’re not able to get the Kindness Diaries on Discovery Plus but I have done my research and watched many videos of you on YouTube. What an amazing story and what an interesting thing to focus on kindness. Why kindness?

The easy ask to is that when I grew up, I felt a lack of kindness. I always had this urge to go on adventures. I created this show and this life, whereby I went on adventures. It was all about relating to people from a place of the heart, generosity, and love giving and receiving.

 

Normalize It Forward | Leon Logothetis | Kindness

 

Leon Logothetis, the Kindness Guy, otherwise known on social media. I referenced your show the Kindness Diaries for those of you that are able to view it online. I strongly suggest you do. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve seen a bunch of clips of it on YouTube and it looks fascinating. Very moving. One story after another. I’m not sure if you’re able to sum up your takeaway from all of those experiences. Can you tell us a bit about how that kindness has impacted you?

The Kindness Diaries was when I purchased a vintage emoji bike with a sidecar. I drove it from Los Angeles all the way around the world back to Los Angeles with no money, no food, no gas, and no place to stay. All I had was relying on the kindness of strangers. People always say to me, “What was the one thing you learned?”

I learned many things but the main thing I learned was that we’re all the same irrespective of religion, how much money we have, and how cool we think we are or think we’re not. At base, we just want to be seen, heard and be loved. It took me traveling the world, becoming part of so many different cultures and meeting so many different people to realize that one simple thing. That we’re at the base of our humanity the same.

Super well played. Very hard to sum up but you did a great job now doing that and I agree. In the world we live in, there’s so much conflict, opinion, and difference. I always find and always say this out loud even in session as a family therapist to patients of mine, “Kindness is free.” It doesn’t cost you a dime. It’s an option that so many of us overlook. The core piece that I took away from watching so many of your videos is just that basicness of being a human being and recognizing that, as you said, we all just want to be seen and not overlooked and treated well.

 

Normalize It Forward | Leon Logothetis | Kindness

 

Often, that option is sitting right there in front of us. I applaud you. Your work that you’ve put together, your Kindness Diaries in general, which I just heard was a proof for season 3. Congratulations. Your general demeanor around this topic, Leon, is admirable. I think there’s so much to this conversation around kindness that again people overlook. Yet, here we are talking about mental health and wellness. To me, it’s one of the pillars that can’t be overlooked because without kindness, we don’t have that connection with other people.

We all know what it feels like to be treated in a kind way, hopefully. We all certainly know how it feels to be treated in an unkind way. No one’s perfect. This isn’t about Leon being a perfect human being and being the kindest guy and always being kind. Sometimes, I’m not. That’s just life. It’s about making a commitment to how you show up. Showing up as best as you can and as often as you can.

Self-Care

I love the way you put that. It brings us into one of the large topics I talk about here is self-care, what is self-care and what does that mean to you. Can I throw that at you? What does self-care mean to you, Leon?

Self-care is treating myself the way I would want to treat someone else. Share on X

Treating myself in a way that I would want to treat someone else. Often, we treat ourselves in ways that we would never let someone else treat us, calm, meditative, with love, with respect, dignity and grace. It doesn’t always happen. Sometimes, I talk to myself, I’ll wake up and I’ll do the opposite of that. I’ll be like, “If someone else treated me this way, would I accept that? No, so why are you doing it yourself?”

I like how you said that. It feels like an option. As you mentioned a moment ago, it’s a work in progress for all of us. As long as we’re on that track and we’re working toward it. As long as we’re aware of it and we see it as an option. We can always change course if we need to and as you said, what a great question. Why would we allow ourselves to do that if we wouldn’t allow other people to? What a great point.

From my point of view, Leon, I’m a family therapist. I see a lot of individuals in my office, mostly young adults and normalize it forward is to me was created based on the concept of so many young people not doing these things. We as older adults need to be role models and get young people to recognize that these are achievable things. These are options and choices that we all can be making. Honestly, if we don’t, our mental health suffers.

Mental Health

If we’re not taking good care, not getting good sleep, not getting some physical activity, and not eating decently, our mental health is impacted. Therefore, we’re not feeling so good about ourselves. That brings me to my next question to you and that is mental health. We hear that phrase thrown around a lot. What do you think of when you hear the phrase metal health, Leon?

Most of us or many of us do not have a good relationship with our mental health meaning that we’re broken. Society has broken us in many ways, some more so than others. If we can have the desire to make our mental health as good as we can, then things will change. Most of us don’t even focus on our mental health. We only focus on it when we’re broken and shattered into millions of little pieces. Whereby, mental health is a daily thing that we have to look at and deal with. Sometimes, it feels so insurmountable. We don’t deal with it until it’s too late or not necessarily too late but it’s at a point where it’s become very difficult to deal with.

 

Normalize It Forward | Leon Logothetis | Kindness

 

Certainly, with young people. I see that all the time. When I get a call from a parent and they say things to me like, “This, this, and this already happened.” “My son has failed out of school and their home.” One of my first thoughts is, “Why didn’t you call me three months ago?” You’re 100% right, most people don’t want to focus on their mental health until they have no choice or until they have to. You made a choice to leave an occupational path because of an inner desire that you had to change things up. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

It goes back to what I said about the mental health piece. It became so desperate internally that I felt like I had no choice. That was a good thing because had it not become that desperate, I probably would still be doing it but now at this point, there would be a moment where it would all implode. It was something that I felt very strongly about. I wanted to live as peacefully, as calmly, and as freely as I possibly could and I certainly wasn’t doing that. It was like the pain that pushed me. The pain pushed me to change.

I’m thankful. I think many people are thankful, Leon, because you’ve done a lot of amazing things since then. Let’s not overlook the fact that just showing us the kindness in other people and where that exists all over the world and the opportunity where we all have. Even on a daily basis to hold the door or to say something kind or to be complementary to somebody and the impact that those words have on a person. Sometimes sustained throughout the rest of their day or even further than that.

I think about the impact of the unkind words and turning the news on and being told that we’re different and that person is a disgrace or whatever it is. It happens all the time. We are being bombarded with negativity. Therefore, that’s how we are living.

Think about the impact of unkind words. We are being bombarded with negativity, and therefore that's how we are living. Share on X

Wellness

I think you’re right. Here we are, we’re progressing in the states here toward another election. I do worry about that. I worry about how that message, those negative messages impact not only adults but also young adults and their general wellbeing. Wellness is a topic that is broad. Wellness and mental health, it’s in there. There’s lots of things that fit in there but wellness is one of those topics that’s super broad.

As you mentioned, people take care of certain aspects of their wellness. They are certainly things that are overlooked with regards to wellness. When you think about freeing yourself, your journey and things that you’ve learned through other people, when you think about that word wellness and the importance of it. What comes to mind?

There’s physical wellness, so looking after yourself physically. There’s mental wellness. The chances are, if you go to the movies and watch a horror movie. You’re going to come out not feeling particularly good. If you go to the movie and watch a movie about love, humanity and about hope. You’re going to feel better. Be very careful what you put into your system. We put a lot of bad stuff into our system without even realizing what we’re doing.

These things alone. These things are social media. I use social media for my business, I’m there. Some of the things I come across are just disturbing. You think about what that does to a young person’s psyche. They’re just looking at it. Unfortunately, this society was different many years ago. We were in school. Students now, over 70% of kids have tremendous amounts of anxiety. Very few of those kids get helped.

To your point from earlier, something like 11% of kids nationally get assistance. A big part of that is based on what you said earlier, which is kids wait and wait until things get bad. I’m not even so sure it’s just kids. Adults sometimes do that as well. I’ll have an adult come into my office and they’re clearly in mouth pain. I’ll say to them, “What’s wrong?” They say, “My mouth has been bothering me for weeks.” I said, “Have you been to the dentist?” “Not yet.” “Why not?  What are you waiting for?” That happens with physical and mental health. In addition to people waiting, are there other reasons in your mind that people don’t address these things that they let them fester?

It’s painful to address it. It’s easy to turn on Netflix.

That’s for sure.

You look at your phone. It’s easier to do that or to eat something or to take a drink or to do a drug than to sit and face yourself. That’s the hardest thing to do. That’s why people don’t do it. Also, we live in a culture where it’s instant gratification. You know better than I do that to heal doesn’t happen instantly. It takes time and dedication. That’s why people don’t do it and that’s why the people who do it are the ones who are in desperate need more often than not.

That’s a great point and often overlooked, the simplicity of how hard it is. Caring for yourself has gotten a bad name over the years. When you use the word selfish, a lot of people think negatively. How do we explain things like going to our doctor for an annual exam or going and getting our teeth cleaned or doing things that we’re supposed to do to maintain ourselves. Those are positive things and yet sometimes people label those things in a very selfish manner. It’s confusing.

As a young adult, what do I do and what do I not do? You’re right, I do think we live in a world where we avoid things that are hard. Things that take a lot of energy and take a lot of our time, even though they’re important. We tend to avoid those things. You’re 100%. It brings me back to this show and the conversation around mental health, wellness, and the importance of us talking about it. The importance of us trying to figure out where we start. Maybe kindness, Leon, is the place we start because kindness is one of those things.

Even if we’re feeling bad, we can always send a kind message to somebody. Whether it be electronically or out loud or even through our behavior. As I said, over the years, I’m a door holder. I like to hold doors for people, especially when I go get my coffee. I’m just amazed at people’s response by holding the door and waiting there for a bit. They’re so profusely excited when they get to the door. I’m like, “I didn’t do much.” They’re like, “You did.”

Advice For Young Adults

Those actions that people could be doing, those kind acts where it doesn’t take much but as you said, it could set the course for that person for the rest of the day and maybe even longer. That’s a great place for us to start. If you were talking directly to a young adult nowadays, picture a 19-year-old or a 20-year-old or a 21-year-old person who’s struggling with some of these things.

Maybe in a way where they’re feeling broken. Maybe in a way where they’re contemplating. What should they do about this? I feel Leon, so many people in life I’ve been given such good suggestions from people over the years. I’ve had some good mentors guide me and make suggestions. I’m wondering what suggestions might you offer a young person if they’re in that particular spot?

Find one person who you feel safe with and share everything with them because part of the challenge is we don’t speak. We let it fester and then it destroys us. Maybe you don’t want to share everything. That’s okay, but share something. Share. Let it out.

Find one person with whom you feel safe and share everything with them. Maybe you don't want to share everything, and that's okay, but share something. Let it out. Share on X

That’s immense. That’s a great suggestion and especially for men because I find that so often men hold it all in. For some reason young men, they’ve been given that message if that’s what we’re supposed to do. As a human being, I don’t care if you’re male female. To me, our bodies don’t like that. At some point, our cup runs over. We can’t hold all of that in but I love what you said. Whether it’s a friend, a therapist, a parent, a coach, or a teacher. It doesn’t even matter as long as they’re willing to listen. In one word, share. I love that.

Share your pain.

I have a funny feeling you have lots of stories that you’ve learned over the years in your travels, Leon. We’d love to one day pick your brain and hear about them. In all honesty, in watching each of your experiences and I’m sitting at my computer listening to what you said and what they’ve said, every single one of them touched me. Every single one of them just brought emotion out.

I would encourage all of our listeners to go on and do their homework and watch your videos and your show because to me it teaches a lot about humanity, about people and what brings us all together as you started with. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. One of the other things I like to do in these episodes is just because I want the conversation to continue. I know I’m putting him on the spot when I do this, but I asked that if you have somebody and your network, whether it be a friend, a relative or a co-worker that you would like to nominate to normalize it forward to keep the conversation going. I would love to interview that person. Anybody come to mind, Leon?

I do. We’ve been working on a documentary called the Kindness Within. It will be coming out soon. The guy I have in mind was the writer and one of the producers. He’s one of the wisest and kindest men I know. His name is Alpha. I would love to put you in touch with him so you can interview him.

I look forward to that and have you shoot me as information offline. Is it too early to ask, where can our viewers watch this when it does come out?

The movie hasn’t come out yet. If you go to KindnessWithin.com, you can see the trailer and you can see everything that the movies are about.

I can’t encourage our readers enough to do that. you’re a unique individual, Leon. You’re a trailblazer around this concept, what a basic easy important concept of kindness. Thank you so much for joining us and for your time and energy. I appreciate it.

No worries. Thanks for having me.

We’ll talk to you soon. Take care.

 

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